Scott Love: Why 99% of Recruiters Fail at Business Development

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
I've spent years talking to big billers and the thing that usually sets them apart is judgment. The gut feeling they bring to a moment of truth in a deal. The question that surfaces, the real objection, the reframe that regains control of a stalling process. The move they make when a candidate goes quiet. Normally that kind of instinct comes from years on the desk, and when you're running 15 live processes at once, you don't have time to engineer that level of thinking into every moment. So too much is left to chance. Until now. Millie analyzes every detail of your live deals and builds the exact strategy you need.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:34]:
Powered by a curated knowledge base from elite recruiters. It's encoded intuition. The judgment and gut feel of big billers translated into real time guidance you can use for every single process. Before every call, you get sharp contextual preparation so you can lead from the first minute in your inbox. High caliber emails are already drafted. Testing, commitment, checking, fit, keeping momentum. Users save an hour a day on email alone and the way they control calls changes completely. If you've been looking for that AI edge that every top biller is using, try Millie for free today.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:05]:
Coming up on this episode of the

scott love [00:01:07]:
Elite Recruiter Podcast, I'm predicting that LinkedIn is not going to be the place where you're going to find a lot of candidates in the future. I think it's become a spamiverse, really. I think there's so much out there on LinkedIn, I think you're going to start finding people not engaging anymore.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:20]:
If a recruiter wants to dramatically increase their billings over the next 12 months or in the next 12 months, what would you tell them to eliminate first?

scott love [00:01:29]:
I would say distractions. I would say get very clear on what your goals are.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:36]:
Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with your host Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership and placements. You know the resume never tells the full story. Candidates share what really matters during conversations, on calls and interviews, over email. Their motivations, salary expectations, plans to relocate. Most of that detail ends up buried in notes and forgotten. Atlas changes that. It's the AI first recruitment platform built to eliminate admin.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:13]:
It captures every conversation automatically and turns it into something you can use. With MagicSearch, you can ask Atlas questions like who talked about wanting a four day week? Or who mentioned they're open to relocating next year? It searches across your entire database and pulls the answers instantly. No keyword guessing and no digging through old notes. You get insight from real conversations, not limited resume fields. Atlas also makes BD easier with opportunities you can track and grow client relationships powered by generative AI and built into your existing workflow. If you want visibility, smart dashboards give you a clear view of the pipeline across your business. And that's not theory. Atlas customers have reported over 40% EBITDA growth and over 80% increase in monthly billings after adopting the platform.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:57]:
It's built for agencies that want to grow without adding more manual work. Don't miss the future of recruitment. Get started with Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer at recruit with atlas.com I'm so excited about this episode with one of the biggest legends in the recruiting industry. And on top of that, one of the things that I miss the most since we moved overseas, spending time with this guest, this individual, this person that I know has shaped the futures of so many recruiters. But here's the thing, we were texting back and forth and he, he was just like, hey, there's something that recruiters are missing right now. There's something that recruiters need. So let's hop back on the podcast. So I am excited to welcome back the one and only Scott Love.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:49]:
Welcome, Scott.

scott love [00:03:50]:
Thank you, Ben. I'm really excited to be here again.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:53]:
All right, real quick for those, maybe the few that don't know you, quick 30 second self introduction. Sure.

scott love [00:03:59]:
So I do partner level recruiting for global law firms. I'm highly specialized and niched. I only recruit corporate and finance partners in major markets domestically and then also get involved in law firm mergers. I also produce the Rainmaking Podcast. It's an industry agnostic podcast towards professional services providers, teaching them how to get more business, better business, all the business from their clients. Also editor in chief of the sister publication the Rainmaking Magazine. And outside of that, I'm a professional artist, married with kids. I love being at home at night, so that's my world.

scott love [00:04:32]:
And your third is gotta work on golf this year too.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:35]:
And your art's now about ready to be like featured in some art galleries, right?

scott love [00:04:40]:
Yeah, first time hung on my own wall in Artworks in Richmond, Virginia in the Manchester area. So I'm really excited about that, Ben.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:47]:
I mean, so many awesome things. Excited to have you back. I think it's been like a year or two since it's one of those things we've seen each other so it's just like never had to sit down for the podcast and I think everybody's been missing those conversations.

scott love [00:05:00]:
Well, I mean you're one of my closest friends, Ben. And I miss not having you here in Richmond, but I'm coming to France. Maybe this summer will bring my whole camp out on your sofa. Cool.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:10]:
My office is ready.

scott love [00:05:12]:
Sounds great.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:13]:
Well, you know what? Let's dive in and for real, quick. Before we do that, we've had, we've sat down and had some amazing conversations before. If you want to go back and hear Scott's origin story, how we ended up in this space, how we ended up in the recruiting chair, how he ended up doing the things that he's done, go back and listen to this previous episodes because we want to spend the time focusing on business development, how to actually be a better recruiter in 2026. So diving right in. So one of the things that you really stood out, Scott, is you said only one out of a hundred recruiters will ever reach their full potential.

scott love [00:05:52]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:52]:
Why?

scott love [00:05:54]:
I think it's because of two reasons. Number one, self esteem, they don't feel like they, they deserve it. And that goes into the second reason, because they're not doing the work that it takes to get to that point. And I think in all of us, Ben, there is an element of self destruction. And I think we get to the point where we achieve success and we're like, this is uncomfortable. I've never felt this way. I need to self sabotage and go back to where I was before, to what is most comfortable for me. And that's a cycle I've seen in myself over the years.

scott love [00:06:28]:
And I don't want to say I figured it all out. I'm a student of recruiting, I'm not a trainer, I'm a student. And I think when you look at the recruiting industry, this is a forum, this is a platform, but it's also a sport. And when you approach recruiting with an athletic mindset, not just the performance and the execution, but the discipline, the self esteem, the difference, I think between high performing athletes and those that are mediocre is their ability to manage their state, their mental state, their emotions, how they feel impacts directly how they perform. And the same way with recruiting, it's how you feel, the emotions that you have, your emotional state impacts how you perform. And most people, they're not, I don't know if they know that. I think that they have issues they just haven't worked through. So I think those two aspects, number one is execution, doing the work, and number two is the mindset.

scott love [00:07:30]:
And so that's why I think, and for many years that was my mission to take that to the world. But I realized economically, I don't want to own a training company. I've seen some amazing trainers. I'm on the podcast with Danny Cahill and Mike Gianta, two very close friends. Both of those have figured out how to run a very successful training company. I suggested an idea for the two of them and Mike Giotta wrote back this brilliant idea of here's seven points we should do. And I'm like, wow, I never would have thought of that. He's really mastered that.

scott love [00:07:59]:
And both of them have done very well. For me, I like doing deals. I like doing sophisticated transactions with people where their lives, their career lives depend on me. And for a very short period of their life, the two most important people and the candidates, when I'm moving them from one law firm to another, it's their spouse and me. You know, we're talking every day about strategy and once. And that's why I call myself the midwife of the placement process, because nine months later, which is my average deal cycle, I'm delivering the baby. And it's exciting. But going back to your question, Ben, people have not done the work to build their self image, their self esteem, their self concept, their hubris overshadows decisions and they make decisions based on ego.

scott love [00:08:45]:
And I tell you this because I used to do that and I figured out that there's this line that you can't go over and that line is eco. But you want to go as close to the line as you can and that's confidence. So that's one part of it, the mindset. The other one is not willing to do the work, always looking for that shortcut, not willing to put the time in and when they're at work, not being focused on one thing. So that's what I, I mean, that's when I had my training business. That was my whole mo, that was my whole purpose. But I just realized I'm much better at doing deals. And I think having taught so many people when I had my training business, 4,500 recruiting companies from 36 countries invested in my resources.

scott love [00:09:27]:
And by teaching something, that's when you learn it. So for everybody listening, if you're in a team, if you're self employed, join a trade association, speak at naps, learn how to teach what you do, that's when you truly learn it. But I think it's just the self image and their performance. They're not willing to do the work. That's what I think.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:47]:
So you're looking at that, those hundred recruiters, that one recruiter that's standing out, that's hitting their potential. Specifically, when it comes to business development, what are they doing different?

scott love [00:09:59]:
They are. And I'd say there's three elements of it. Number one, they have clearly defined a niche where they can go deep. And when you do this, a few things happen. You start to see things that you didn't see before. You start to understand concepts and how it all fits together. You also start to earn trust from those people that are specialists in their niche. And you're a specialist in their niche too.

scott love [00:10:23]:
And it's even the trust that can be earned very quickly. So that's one aspect of it. The second one is that they have not just shown that they're different than their competition, but that they're distinct. It's one thing to say I'm different from all of my competition, but it's something else to say I'm the only one in the world that does this. I'm truly distinct. It's kind of like this. What's different about your car? Well, we have airbags. We have airbags on our car.

scott love [00:10:53]:
Well, every car has airbags on their car. That's a reference to Bob Potter. He was on my podcast years ago and that was one thing I learned from him. It's not just being different, it's being distinct. And then the third is, is it's one thing to be the busy bee and it's something else to be the flower where you build a community. Just like what you've done with this podcast, Ben, is you're the flower. Everybody else is getting value by being around you. And those, I think in our three day seminar, which we've just done here in 90 seconds, those are the three things I think that they need to.

scott love [00:11:30]:
Need to focus on.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:33]:
So because You've worked with 4,500 different firms across the globe, you've had the chance to sit down and look at people's desks. You had the chance to see the insides, what they were doing, the activity levels, the breakdowns. If you actually had the chance to audit these mythical hundred people today, what do you think are the most common business development mistakes that 99 are making?

scott love [00:11:59]:
I think number one is they're only relying on one tool, the most placeable candidate, because it's effective and it works. But if everybody else is doing that, they've caught up with you. I work in the legal recruiting industry, which is one of the most competitive industries, especially since 2021, when every lawyer said, I hate being a lawyer. Wow, look at all this demand All I had to do is play someone. Look at the fee I cat. And they got into it. Now they're starting to get back out. I've seen people that were well known in the legal space.

scott love [00:12:27]:
I mean, well, everybody knew their name. They got into it. Two years later, they're out of it already because they realize there's a lot of work. This is like chopping wood. It's hard. And the work is being on the phone, in person, zoom meetings, things like that.

Benjamin Mena [00:12:42]:
Yeah, that's what I think to these 99 recruiters. Like, do you think the mindset has something to do with it? Is that the transactional mindset?

scott love [00:12:51]:
I think so, but I think. I think that they don't have a robust knowledge of how business development works. And I say that because the only way I got that was by interviewing over 300 people for the Rainmaking podcast. I started that in 2020. It's Covid. Let me put on a show. What am I going to do? And I thought, well, what does every law firm partner care about? Well, they don't care about talking to headhunters until they want to move. So I wanted to create this shiny lure of content that draws them to me.

scott love [00:13:20]:
They care about getting more business. So I started interviewing experts, coaches for lawyers, and it built its own brand. But what I learned through that was that, I mean, I'm interviewing some of the leading business development coaches for professional services. I'm sitting at their feet the same way you do in recruiting with your show. Half of my guests are authors, and I force myself to read every book that every author's written. Most recently, the business development shifts how to win clients through intellectual curiosity and consistency. Written by Doug Ottoman. I interviewed him yesterday.

scott love [00:13:52]:
His book comes out in the next week or so. But just learning and being reminded what business development truly is, it's not just making a call, sending a text message or an email or a LinkedIn request. Hey, I've got a process engineer who's making 125. He wants to move. Are you interested? That's it. I think we've defaulted to that in the recruiting industry because that's what we grew up on, and that's what works. And it does work. But if everybody else is doing that, what's different about you? What's distinct about you? So I think they need to look at more avenues of doing business development.

scott love [00:14:30]:
And there's, let's say, 20 of them out there, try different things, test something, see if it works. I've made some changes to my practice just this year, two years ago, I made some changes. We tested it, and I had some realizations early on, proof of concept. And then even just this month. So this quarter, reviewing, I've got a business development coach or a coach, we meet every month. We're actually talking today, going through my strategy, what's working, what's not working, where do I need to make changes? And when you've got a lot of activity, you've got a lot of data, and now you can sit back and look at what placements, where am I getting my placements? I think another thing people need to do is really track their activities. One of the things I do, I keep two metrics every day on an Excel spreadsheet. One of them was, how many submissions did I make that day? And the other one was, how many sendouts did I make? And in my niche, I try to do four submissions to send outs every week.

scott love [00:15:26]:
Send out, meaning a first interview. It could be a zoom meeting, whatever it is. I try to get two people together each week with a different firm. And so I track those two metrics. The third column I have every day, I document what was my greatest achievement, what was the one thing I did really well? I turned a no into a yes. I talked the candidate off the ledge when he's thinking about backing off of the offer, whatever it was. I met with a client, I got a retainer, I met with the law firm chairman, whatever that greatest achievement was. And then the next column, and this is key, what were the lessons learned? What were the mistakes I made? I didn't get back to somebody soon enough.

scott love [00:16:04]:
I didn't follow up with his candidate, and he joined my client through another headhunter. What were the mistakes that I made? And I document that. And this is where you have to peel the hubris back and be real with yourself. It's something I've got a son that's 25 and a daughter that's 14. My son's on his way. I'm so proud of him. My daughter, 14, I'm so proud of her. She's had some challenges she's had to work through.

scott love [00:16:25]:
And the one thing I told her last week, I said, the most important thing in your life is being honest with yourself. And I think if we're truly honest with ourselves, what's working, what's not working? Get a coach. I'm not doing coaching anymore, but find somebody and they don't have to be. In the recruiting industry, a true coach doesn't bring subject matter expertise. They're really good at Helping you to uncover and discover really where your strengths and weaknesses are and help you figure out where you need to go. But work with someone, that's going to help you see where those deficits are. So when you look at all that, now you've got your data, I can go. And I've been doing that since about 2017, 2018, something like that.

scott love [00:17:04]:
So I've got some data. And about once a quarter, I go through all my lessons learned and I'm looking through patterns, I'm looking through trends. What are the same mistakes I'm making over and over again? And then you see, and then you ask yourself, why am I hesitating? Why am I making this mistake? And this is about four years ago, I noticed I'm losing out on this opportunity. I didn't get back that candidate's candidate soon enough. And that happened over and over and over. And I'm asking myself, why is it I'm afraid of rejection. I talked to them once, pitched the opportunity. I didn't follow up soon enough.

scott love [00:17:38]:
They made a decision to go somewhere else. I lost that opportunity. Why was that? Because I was afraid of being rejected. So I think when you're honest with yourself about where those changes are, where you really need to make those changes, where those areas are, where you need to make changes, that's when you're going to start experiencing real growth. So I think being honest with yourself, what is your business development strategy, what's working, what's not working? And find other ways to do business development.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:04]:
Scott, you've coached so many people, but you just said that you yourself, the coach of many coaches, even though you've stopped coaching, has hired a coach to help you with business development.

scott love [00:18:15]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:17]:
Why?

scott love [00:18:18]:
And it's not just business development. It's mostly strategy. Although he was a guest on my show, David Greer, and some of his concepts I got came out of his book. For example, 1. 1 business development technique he had was tell a dirty secret of your industry. Tell a dirty secret of your industry. And so what is it? And it's not salacious. It's like, okay, what is it that most recruiters in my industry do that isn't truly effective and isn't serving my clients? And so I actually found one idea, and it was recording phone calls.

scott love [00:18:57]:
And I was able to have a campaign that in my company, we don't record phone calls. And if you're talking to a recruiter, you may very well have that phone call being recorded. How do you know? And so I was able to kind of sound the alarm on something that was real legit. And does it mean that legal recruiters that record attorneys phone calls are doing nefarious things with them? Probably not. But I was able to, through a very minor LinkedIn campaign, kind of pluck the industry into getting some attention from candidates and kind of telling that dirty secret on my industry. If you're an attorney, do you really want to talk to a recruiter where they're recording your phone call? And also, what else do you not know about them? And so I've worked really hard on building my thought leadership so that now they're going to Google me, they're going to check it out. Oh, quoted the American lawyer, et cetera. So going back to your question, then, working with the coach, having someone help you to discover new ways to get clients and being honest with yourself, those are keys I think recruiters really need to focus on.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:03]:
So often the number one thing that I hear from recruiters is about sales and bd and they need more clients and they need more of this. I think it's the, the challenge of 2026. But why do so many recruiters truly avoid business development, even though when they, at the same time they say they want growth?

scott love [00:20:26]:
Yeah, I think it goes back to the fear of rejection, the fear of being exposed. Imposter syndrome. And also it's, people are lazy. It's easier to stick with the known. And this is the mantra when I would do a lot of this. And I will tell you, sometimes I still speak at conferences, I'll do that. But I don't want to do coaching, I don't want to do consulting. I still enjoy that.

scott love [00:20:47]:
And right now I'm only speaking to legal conferences. But I think being found out, the imposter syndrome, I think that's something that keeps people from really pursuing this. I also think that, that, well, I'm comfortable. I have my clients and the mantra I've taught people is get more business so that way you can get better business. What does that mean? They call you back quicker. They pay you quicker. We had a client placement started 10 days, got the ACH. What a great client.

scott love [00:21:18]:
They're number one. You're dealing with the leadership of the organization. You're getting feedback. They're asking you. We're looking at opening an office up in this area. What do you know about that market? They're asking you for strategic help. They see you not just as a trusted advisor, but someone that is an indispensable resource, someone that they can't do business without. That's better business.

scott love [00:21:42]:
And then the final one is all the business. And you might work with a large entity, you're not going to get all their business, but you're going to be the first one that they reach out to you. If you're not getting that, then you need to change your business development focus and that goes back to getting more business. When you have more business, you can then pick and choose. We had a client where last year 2025, we brought them one individual that was excited. There were some force multipliers, mutual synergy. We're working on the term sheet. We're getting ready.

scott love [00:22:13]:
We're going to make an offer to your candidate. And the next day they said, we've decided there's not enough momentum. They did that two more times. They reached out to me of critical search. We really need this person. We have another critical search, same thing all the way up to the end. And they pulled the plug. And we said, we gave them our best year.

scott love [00:22:28]:
We gave them our best year and we're no longer working with them. We're not burning a bridge. We're just not making them a priority because situations change. That client that you had the conflict with today, that might be your best client. I've actually had conflict with clients where we had a fee issue with one. A candidate left over a certain time. And I went to their office and I told her, I said, I am here in your office, I am with you in person to resolve this. And we end up doing more deals.

scott love [00:22:55]:
When I see her at conferences, she gives me a hug because we went through that conflict together. So I think more business, better business, all the business. And this is why you might think I don't need any more clients. We don't know when the next natural or man made disaster is going to change the world. And that isn't a political statement. But things change overnight as we've all and we're kind of used to it by now. We've gone through about four evolutions of what the United States is since January of last year. And there's a big change.

scott love [00:23:27]:
That's one thing we're kind of getting used to. We went through Covid as an entire globe and you know, we can deal with this. If that happens again, we'll be okay. But you will find that there are organizations that you haven't done work with. Maybe you've presented people to, maybe they've interviewed your candidates, but they haven't hired people from you. Stay in touch with them. Right now we have three new clients. We finished some agreements with one firm, an 18 month retainer.

scott love [00:23:53]:
We're still working with them on a contingency basis. They're not the kind of organization that fits other people that we've talked to when we pitch that opportunity to them. Now we've got three organizations that fit what those candidates most likely would be receptive to. So we're going back over the 250 people that we've talked to in the last 18 months about here's some other options for you. Because we brought those three organizations on as clients recently. I presented people to them, but we reached out to them about a specific need and that opened up the door to other options. So it's like this algorithm where you have to look at which are your alpha clients and then which are your beta clients, who are the ones and then who is everybody else. Some of those people that you might talk to once a year, they might be your best client next year.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:41]:
So, Scott, that only happens if you're in a niche. Do you see recruiters spread too thin and across too many places and not niche down enough?

scott love [00:24:52]:
I do, all the time. And that reminds me, when my daughter was eight years old, we went to Chuck E. Cheese and I'm sure you've been there before and we've all had birthday parties there. It's maddening, it's loud. And I remember my daughter was in this wind tunnel, this glass wind tunnel and they have hundreds of tickets flying around her. She's in there for 60 seconds and she's trying to grab as many tickets as she can. And at the end of 60 seconds, there's hundreds of tickets flying around. She walks out holding one ticket.

scott love [00:25:19]:
And I think when you're flailing and trying to find too many things, you're not focused. I think the best way to do it is to be a specialist. Look at your niche. Where is their demand? Where is their long term potential demand? And you don't want to go to a place that nobody else has been before. There may be a reason for that. And that's something I remember coaching people when I would do that. Even people that would be getting started in a certain niche, helping them to get to the premier spot right out of the gate and bypass everything else, but absolutely right. I think the best way to achieve massive success is to become known as a specialist.

scott love [00:25:56]:
But that means you're not going to get all those other tickets. So you ask yourself, what's your billing goal? How many placements does that yield each year? Can you do that many placements within this narrow vertical and not pursue everything else. And if the answer is yes, there you go. That's how you start.

Benjamin Mena [00:26:14]:
We'll just say we're auditing the hundred desk again. What do you think the percentage is of people that are niched down enough improperly out of that hundred?

scott love [00:26:22]:
I'd say about 20. I'd say about one out of five has a pretty good tight niche and they're known for something in that space. The worst thing in the world I hear when I talk to people is, well, I'm a Swiss army knife of recruiting. Because you, you want to be known as one thing and that can change over time. You can make adjustments. We're making adjustments to our focus areas right now where we're going deeper. In one area that we found there's a lot of demand. It's a lot easier to connect with people.

scott love [00:26:52]:
The way those people make decisions compared to the other ones is more conducive to us and what we do in terms of our placement cycle. So I'd say about one out of five have really done the work and at least have a good sense of what works for them in terms of a niche.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:08]:
So one of the cool things about watching you and knowing you all these years is just the amount of creative things that you do with business development. And I truly believe, like if you were a Swiss army knife, you couldn't even pull off any of the things that you've done. You've just been super creative, like non stop. I'm like, huh, that's kind of cool. That's kind of cool. I'm literally, I'm always like, that's kind of cool with you. But for somebody that's listening, they're in a niche. What's one super creative BD move that most recruiters could do but have never considered before?

scott love [00:27:40]:
I would say get published. Get published. And it doesn't have to be a book. It can be a series of articles in trade publications. Two weeks ago, a reporter from the American Lawyer quoted me in their publication and somebody else, a strategic alliance partner that I met through my show, referred him to me. And when there's a referral, there's trust automatically. And so right out the gates. I've heard good things about you from this person.

scott love [00:28:06]:
I'd like to get a quote on this topic. I gave him a few quotes. And when you talk to reporters on the record, off the record, there's a difference. Be very clear with that. And the quote came out and I'm like, that's great. So I Said I'm in New York. I go there every other week. Let's have lunch.

scott love [00:28:20]:
And when you meet with somebody from the press, it's Dutch treat. You can't treat them to lunch. Dutch treat. Get to know each other, become friends. And I have a lead. You know what? I know a firm that's opening up in New York. Would you like for me to introduce you to their chairman? I'd love that. Terrific.

scott love [00:28:36]:
Let me talk to him first and I'll get the green light and then I'll connect you. If he's comfortable, and I. Sure he will. I'm sure he will be. And so I think getting creative and you want to put yourself in the path of those people that you want to get to know before they know you, you want to find ways to put yourself on their path, such as getting quotes and mentions. I think once you get published, let's say in trade journals, trade publications, then those reporters see your thought leadership. I think you want to have a thought leadership page. I try to have one on my site, attorneysearchgroup.com you go to thought leadership.

scott love [00:29:13]:
It's intentionally annoyingly long where I want it to be. Almost annoying that they can't get to the end to it. And that isn't something I've spent a lot of time on. Once you're quoted once in the media of your space, other people see that you can reference that. When you see a reporter mention something, let's say you're in the plastics industry or the AI industry or something like that, you message them because they're all on LinkedIn. I read your quote or I read your story, then I have a contrarian point of view and this is what it is. And if you ever write another piece, I'd be happy to talk to you about that. Or here's another sub point on what you wrote.

scott love [00:29:53]:
Give it to them. Don't ask. I'd love for you to quote me. You give and they see that. And if you make them look good, if you help them solve their problem, which is getting the source to give me a pithy quote that I can use, then they look good and then they want to keep connected with you. But you can't do that unless you have some sort of a brand, unless you're known as a subject matter expert within your niche and start with trade associations of your industry. When I would coach people, I remember I coached one guy. He did staffing, he wanted to get into executive search.

scott love [00:30:24]:
He did healthcare staffing. I want to get into executive search and I Coached him. He lived in Nashville. We got his brand, got his site, unique selling proposition, et cetera. And the first call I advised him to make was to the executive director of the Nashville chapter of the Healthcare Financial Management association, whatever that trade association is called. He called her. I do executive search. I'd like to write an article on best practice of hiring accountants within hospital systems.

scott love [00:30:48]:
We'd love that. He asked her for referrals. Who are some people that you know very well, CFOs of healthcare systems, where I can interview them and I'd be happy to quote them and give them some splash in the media in my piece. Oh, you should call this person. This person, this person. These were all CFOs of large healthcare systems. Guess what? They're also on the board of that state chapter of that association. So his first calls as a recruiter within his niche was connecting with CFOs.

scott love [00:31:16]:
You know, Sally Jones with your trade association spoke highly f you. And I'm writing an article on best practices of interviewing accountants within your niche for your trade association. And I'd like to interview you and I'd be happy to quote you in the piece. Please call me back. You get a pretty high rate of return with that. Nobody teaches that in the industry because it's just. It's contrary. It does impact phone time, but when you call people who have heard of you, the calls go much more effectively.

scott love [00:31:45]:
So you've got to build that. That's the easiest way to answer your question. That's the easiest way to get started, is get quoted. Not quoted, but write, get published in your industry niche and then you attract other media to you.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:57]:
So you've also built a media empire within your niche. You were one of the original people that told everybody that you need to start an industry podcast. My mistake was I started a recruiting podcast, but that's a whole nother story.

scott love [00:32:09]:
But it's done well for you, Ben.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:12]:
I gotta say, though, media has become a leverage. Has become your leverage.

scott love [00:32:18]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:19]:
Is it now almost like your modern reputation tool? And did you guess three? What are you on episode like 312 right now?

scott love [00:32:27]:
300. 301 this week. 301, 301.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:29]:
Were you thinking about that at episode one or episode two? Or did this just come about organically and now you're like, oh, crap, this is kind of awesome.

scott love [00:32:38]:
It's during COVID I know a lot of other speakers. I might want to speak again. I think I'll do a show. And the intention was I want to build a podcast so that People will call me to speak at their conference on sales. And it wasn't back then, it was sales, not business development. So it was kind of more leaned towards that. But then I realized, you know, I want to kind of pivot it more towards business development, because that's the. That's the word that people in my niche use.

scott love [00:33:04]:
They don't use sales, they use client development, business development, rainmaking. So it wasn't really thought through that much. But what I realized is that my industry niche is the legal industry. So let's say somebody works in like, what's an industry of recruiters that listen to your show? Ben, what's a large industry?

Benjamin Mena [00:33:22]:
There's a lot of healthcare, a lot

scott love [00:33:23]:
of tech, let's say healthcare. Let's say they recruit physicians within healthcare. Think of it like a physical master plan community of healthcare. The people they recruit, they live in the gate guarded section up on the hill, right? But there also might be a nurses section there in the townhouse. There might be staff there in the multifamily, down at the front of the gate. But that's one community. And guess what? They talk to each other. So it doesn't mean, if you're recruiting just physicians, it doesn't mean speak at just the physician conference, speak at the nurse conference, speak at the health staff company conference, write for all those become known within that neighborhood because they talk to each other.

scott love [00:34:05]:
And that's what I did with my podcast, and it developed critical mass. And then what I realized was that I'm building trust. And my customer, quote, unquote, is not necessarily the listener, the partner that I want to recruit. It's the guest, the person that's on my show that has a network of attorneys. Their network might be anywhere from a hundred to five hundred attorneys. And guess what? They're on my show. I've got a full. I mean, I've built.

scott love [00:34:34]:
I think my budget for my staff is about 250,000 a year just for my three people and the other resources we put into it. So you got a bill, you know, you got a bill. But I've invested in that. So that way I'm spending maybe one or two hours a week on that. And I'm on the phone the rest of the time. I'm in meetings, I'm at dinners, networking events within my niche, going to industry conferences for my niche. I'll probably go to about five or six conferences in 2026. One of them I'm going to be speaking at a managing partner roundtable conference.

scott love [00:35:07]:
So the show Helped me to build a brand. And so for everybody listening, if you've done this and it's. I kind of got lucky figuring out how to interview people. I didn't go to resources. How should I interview? I just figured out because I actually started. I don't know if you knew this. I started podcasting in 2008. Ben, did you know that?

Benjamin Mena [00:35:29]:
I remember that because you changed the name of your podcast.

scott love [00:35:31]:
Yeah. Back there was a great recruiter training podcast. Yeehaw. I mean, it had been dormant for a couple of years. You know, it was dormant. And then in 2020 or 2020. 2020, I took that same feed, changed it. Now I had actually done several other shows prior to that in the legal space where I made a lot of mistakes.

scott love [00:35:52]:
I think I did a series of 30 shows and the average listenership was 20 per episode. I made some mistakes, but then I realized, get people to have a big list on the show in my niche, and they might be adjacent to the people I want to recruit, but the people I want to recruit might have heard of that name. And so that's when I realized it's a community, like a physical master plan community. And the people I'm dealing with in the gate guarded section up on the hill, but I'm speaking to the whole community here. And I've been able to do other creative things with that, Even things I'm not going to tell anybody that have really helped me to, you know, the secret sauce to build that brand.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:32]:
I got one more question on this brand thing, because you're 300 episodes in. This is like years of work. Yeah. You have a team, but sometimes you see somebody like, hey, I got an idea. I'm going to start running with it. How do you stay visible without feeling spammy?

scott love [00:36:48]:
I don't have an email list because the people in my niche, if I send them an email, even though they subscribe to it, they'll say, take me off your list, you spamming scum. Because that's how my candidates are. They don't want to be put on a headhunter's email list. So I try to create content that gets them to want to connect with me. My whole posture is, I'm not going to chase you. I'm delighted to talk with you. I'm very busy. And if you qualify, I'm happy to work with you and help you move to a different firm because I'm busy.

scott love [00:37:21]:
And if you're not comfortable with me, read my LinkedIn testimonials. Look at my thought leadership, Google Me, and I'm happy to talk with you. That's the posture that attracts successful people instead of, you'll be my first, you know, you'll be my only one. And it takes time to get to that point. Point. But I think give people something that they want to the point they want to connect with you. That's a lot easier than chasing people down. Come up with content that's so compelling that they become a fan and get other people on the show that can propagate that message to their lists, even if it's adjacent to the people that you want to have in your back pocket.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:03]:
So I want to switch gears a little bit. I want to talk about money. Should recruiters chase higher fees and fewer clients, or should they chase lower fees and go at scale?

scott love [00:38:13]:
I think they should chase what has the highest likelihood of working for them. One of the things I learned from my first manager named Jim Vockley, and I'm grateful for the experience. We both worked at a search firm that was just kind of weird. I was there for a few months and I think they fired me. Ben, I'm not sure. I think the owner, he stopped paying me. I'd moved away, was working, virtually stopped returning my calls. And after a few months, I didn't get paid for commissions on placements.

scott love [00:38:39]:
I'm like, I don't think I work there anymore. Every time I make a placement, I say, thank you, Tim, for that experience. Because without me billing what I am now, if without him, it wouldn't have happened. If he didn't terminate me, I mean, I'm so grateful that happened. But from my first manager, Jim Falkley, that worked there, he taught me something. He said in contingency recruiting, work on those placements that have the highest likelihood of closing the quickest. And I think that model, when we look at contingent recruiting, retain is different. Contingent is a risk management business.

scott love [00:39:13]:
Spend time in areas that are going to bear fruit. When you look at which path you should take, look at which one has the most certainty. Don't necessarily chase the highest fees, chase the sure thing. I know billers, people that do 15k fees and they're billing a million a year. I think the worst way to do it, which is how I'd done it before, was just really big fees. Where you've got one, you know, I've done some pretty big fees before. I'd rather have about eight solid above average fees instead of one big one and one small one. I'd rather have 20 average placements.

scott love [00:39:55]:
That's even Better. So the biggest, the higher fees are not necessarily where you should be. I will tell you this though. Let's say going back to healthcare, if you're recruiting mid level executives, take a shot, start going up. When I was in commercial construction years ago, I went to a Charles Wadlow seminar, CRW seminars. He doesn't do that. Of course he does. CFOs.

scott love [00:40:17]:
You know, he did that for a few years, I think maybe three years. And then kind of like I figured out, out also get back to recruiting. But what I learned from him was if you're recruiting mid level managers, go up a notch. And so what I did, and I'll never forget when I did this, Ben, I was recruiting, I was dealing with operations managers, vice presidents of operation to recruit project managers, superintendents, estimators. And then one day I did this. I called every VP that I'd met and I said, I don't have something right now that would fit you, but it's very likely within the next six months I'll have a VP of operations manager search. If I do, would you be interested in hearing about that? No, no, no. And then one of them let me close my door and he was, he was ready to go.

scott love [00:41:03]:
And so I got my first candidate that I marketed and he was in Chicago. And I remember leaving messages for 10 CEOs of large construction companies there. Four or five of them called me back because I had someone. And so when you go up a level, it's easier to do business. They've got better people skills, there's less competition, it's delightful to work with them. There's a little bit more of a formality to it. Some people shouldn't do that. And it doesn't matter if you went to college or not.

scott love [00:41:37]:
If you have a good value proposition and you sound good and you treat people with respect and you've got that gravitas which you have to have, but not the overconfidence that's attractive to people. So I think the answer is different for everybody. But as a test, stay within your niche, stay within your lane and maybe go up a notch and just try that. I don't have anything right now, but it's likely I could have something in the next six months. If I do, even when I do, would you be open hearing about that? Then you find that VP and then you start marketing that person. And you're not calling hr, you're calling the CEO about high level talent. And that's an easy way. I've coached a lot of people on how to transition up in their niche if they wanted to.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:17]:
When you're looking at your own personality style, does your personality style and how you operate impact how you look at what you want to do fee wise?

scott love [00:42:27]:
I think it does. I think. I'm not an expert on personality. I will tell you this. Introverts, I think, have a better shot at doing more sophisticated recruiting because they tend to listen, they tend to ask better questions. When I got into legal in 2009, I didn't know anything about legal. So I go into client meetings and they were in person meetings. I'd have a blank legal pad.

scott love [00:42:54]:
Tell me about your problems that you're having here. What's the vision of growing this office? Let's say we go three years from now. What does that look like to you? What are the challenges you're having in terms of finding talent? What's the impact of that challenge? What would be the reason why someone would thrive within your organization? And so, and then I walk out and they thanked me. Thank you so much for coming here, Scott. And I'd say my best chick fil a voice. My pleasure. I'd say, my pleasure. I wouldn't thank them.

scott love [00:43:19]:
I thank them when I send the invoice. Thank you so much, Lisa. I appreciate. Thank you for your business. I really appreciate that. You know, I'm grateful when I get paid. But up at that point, you need to have the right kind of posture, the right kind of gravitas. And so I think the personality goes back to those people that are good at serving others.

scott love [00:43:37]:
Take your own interests out of the equation. We are in a business that is a derivative success business. You only become successful if and when you help two parties strike a deal. That's it. Creating that mutual satisfaction it needs. You've got to have the confidence and the gravitas. You have to have that, but you can't have the arrogance.

Benjamin Mena [00:43:57]:
It's always like an interesting thing just because, like, I've interviewed Pinnacle Society members that have built over a million dollars and they have like tons of deals going on, like constantly. Ten minutes before we sat down, I got off the phone with a recruiter from the UK. She billed 1,3 million and she only made one placement last year. I was just like, it's always interesting to see that the personality styles and the behind the scenes stuff. But I want to go back to something that you just said. Did you just say that you do not thank a client at all until you send an invoice?

scott love [00:44:31]:
I thank them when they pay me. There is an Exception. If it's low level staff, they're coordinating the interview. Thank you so much for putting that meeting together. I'm very gracious. I will be very liberal with my thanks for the staff. Thank you so much for connecting me. And Jerry, the chairman.

scott love [00:44:47]:
Thank you so much. But when I'm talking to Jerry, the chairman. Jerry, I'm delighted to talk with you. Well, thank you, Scott. We really appreciate your help on this. My pleasure, Jerry. I'm excited about partnering together. That's how it is.

scott love [00:44:59]:
Because you're busy. They want you more than you want them. You have something that they want. I remember the day I figured that out, Ben. I was marketing a candidate called a president of a construction company years ago, and he said, we don't have a need for someone like that, but we'd be really interested. We'd be delighted. We'd be delighted if you kept us in mind for someone that does this. And I realized the way he said that he needs me more than I need him.

scott love [00:45:25]:
And this isn't arrogance. This is confidence and gravitas. You're gracious. I'm in New York every other week, usually lunches, breakfasts, happy hours. I'm not drinking during Lent, you know, so it's iced tea, but the server comes by every time they give me something. Thank you. You want to be very gracious. And all these successful people that make seven figures, they're the same way.

scott love [00:45:47]:
They're gracious with the staff, I think. But when you're dealing with the owner or the executive, you need to have the right kind of posture, the right kind of gravitas. And that's not arrogance. But they should thank you more than you thank them. Closed a deal, called the chairman. He was on the slopes of Utah. Thank you so much, Scott. My pleasure, Greg.

scott love [00:46:06]:
I'm excited about this placement. And when I send the invoice, thank you for your business. You know, there's one firm and that, that'll be our sixth placement with this one firm the last 18 months. And it's just so good to be a part of their store. I just love that so much. I love that we had another candidate, started with a different firm yesterday. I texted him on Friday, his last day with this firm. I said, I'm sad we won't be talking with each other every day, but let's keep in touch.

scott love [00:46:31]:
And it's just so special to be a part of that. And with the candidates. The other thing related to thanking who, when you call a candidate, don't thank them for taking your call. You're calling with opportunity. They need to be the ones that thank you. And it's just a subtle shift. And if people understand that the dynamic changes everything. You want to attract people to you and that's how you do it.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:54]:
So talking about that subtle shift, talking about the grand vitas, at what point should somebody look at like hey, maybe I need to raise my fees?

scott love [00:47:01]:
That's a challenging question. Number one, pay your bills, don't get into debt. Get a line of credit off of securities if you need it. Don't get greedy. Get certain in what is working for you and then ratchet it up over time. I see a lot of people, we teach you how to be in retained right away. That's kind of dangerous. You want to slowly get into that.

scott love [00:47:25]:
You want to, if you're going to make a change, test it first for the next client. I get, I'm only going to work at this fee percentage. And if you raise your fees, and that was a big part of what I did, it was teaching people how to go from 20 to 25, 30%, even a third of a fees and going from contingent to engagement fee to fully retained search because I've done all those things and it's a process. You can't just flip the switch and you're raising your fees. That's dangerous because your number one obligation is financial and economic. You want to keep your credit score high in case you need it. If you have a windfall, first thing you do is reach out to your banker. I'd like to get a line of credit.

scott love [00:48:05]:
Well, you don't need it. That's why I'd like to get a line of credit just in case. Because we don't know when the next natural or man made disaster is going to happen and you want to be ready for that. So I think being judicious about making any changes and even the things we talked about here about niching, test it first before you go all in and don't be afraid to make adjustments after you learn what's working, what's not working, what's worked for other people may not work for you. And what hasn't worked for others, it may work for you. So slowly make those changes and test them. Don't get greedy. Be certain.

scott love [00:48:38]:
Be responsible. Pay your bills, pay your vendors super quick. Anybody you know. I've got three people on my payroll that work for me. Two of them get commissions, one of them gets discretionary bonuses. I pay them the day I get the ach from the client. You don't hold on to that stuff. You want to be the kind of person in business that people know they can depend on.

scott love [00:48:58]:
And that's what's. That's what it's all about. Ben.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:01]:
So you mentioned about slowly testing out retainers and that kind of stuff, like what has to be true before a recruiter can really bring up a retainer.

scott love [00:49:10]:
You have to be somewhat known in your space. You have to have somewhat of a name. I think you have to have a story that is authentic and people can verify. They can go and see, oh, you have placed people in this space. You don't want to be seen as an interloper or start out with one good, solid client where they're going to take a shot. I remember the very first legal client I had. I wrote an article, I interviewed him for it, and we've developed a good relationship. And he said, if you come to dc, Bring your golf clubs.

scott love [00:49:47]:
We're playing golf. I'd never made a partner placement. I'd never made a law firm placement before. And he looked at me when we teed off on the first hole, halfway through it, and he looked at me. He says, scott, tell me about which other law firms you're working with. And I'm like, oh, man, how am I going to answer that? And I said, kevin, I've been successful in other industries, and I'm making a transition to legal, and you'll be my first. And I'll never forget the look I saw in his face. Like, only 17 holes to go.

scott love [00:50:13]:
Fortunately, there was a big thunderstorm that came in, and we ran to the clubhouse, and we had time to just talk and get to know each other. And when we're on our second beer and we're all huddled in the clubhouse because it's just pouring down rain, I earned his trust, and I told him the story. I was successful in this other niche. I've coached dozens of legal recruiters. I had a training company where I coached them, and I taught them legal recruiters how to be successful. And now I'm getting into legal recruiting. And he said, I'll never forget it. He had his.

scott love [00:50:46]:
He pointed down on the paper where I kind of drew a diagram. He says, we're going to teach you legal. You help us grow our firm. And that was my first big client. I placed five partners in there in a year and a half. One of whom I placed retired a year ago. And this is like 2010, 2011. She just retired from that firm.

scott love [00:51:06]:
She sent me a text message that day thanking me for putting her There the day she retired. And it was pretty exciting, Ben, just to be that person that makes that difference. But you've gotta be willing to work. You've gotta put the ego aside and be willing to learn and invest. Invest tens of thousands of dollars every year in your own development. You have to do that. There's no way of getting around that.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:30]:
On a quick side note, all those times that we've gotten drinks at the country club, that look that legal guy just gave you at hole number one was my fear of ever hitting the course with you. As I hit the ball backwards or something like that, I'm like, oh, God, this is going to be a long game. Let's just go back to the bar.

scott love [00:51:48]:
That's okay. Hey, man, it's all good. It's all good.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:52]:
So back to retainers. Should recruiters chase retainers before they've earned the authority to justify them?

scott love [00:52:03]:
I think it's risky. You don't want to be found out as a fraud. I think. I think there's two schools of thought. One is take your existing clients, convert them to retain. I think that if you have built a good contingent practice, then you have built something where you can take a shot on retained. And not every search you do has to be retained. There's different schools of thought.

scott love [00:52:26]:
If you're a member of the American association of executive recruiters, or AA. I can't remember what it's called, but that's 100% retained. Fully engaged retained search. That's one thing that's not. Most recruiters you can. And what I would recommend is, let's say you have a really difficult search and you tell them, most searches I do are on a contingent basis where I'm working on your assignment and several others just like yours. And I'm presenting candidates I present to you and three or four other companies. If this is a priority, I might suggest an engaged retained search where you pay me a retainer X amount of dollars, we deduct that from the balance of the fee, and that does three things for you.

scott love [00:53:06]:
Number one, I'm accountable. We have weekly updates, and every week we can do a zoom screen. You own the data, I show you who I'm talking to, I show you their feedback, et cetera. Number two, because I'm telling people I've been retained, they're going to close the door in their office, they're going to listen to me. And number three, because I tell them I'm retained, I'm going to build trust with them because they know, oh, this is A real search. It's not just a fishing expedition. They get so many calls from contingent recruiters. This is something they don't hear very often.

scott love [00:53:37]:
They're going to listen to me. So I would say if you have that kind of search, that kind of opportunity, test it. If you make any changes, don't make big, broad, sweeping changes all at once. Test it, see if it works and then continue to build.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:55]:
I've been wanting to have a conversation with somebody about this. Scott, game theory. When it comes to recruiting, how should we think about business development within game theory?

scott love [00:54:08]:
Look at what actions can help you bear fruit. And so like I mentioned, it's a risk management business. If our primary objective is not fulfilled, well, I still have something to show for my time. That's the, the question we have to answer. I learned this. As you know, I used to be a professional card counting blackjack player over 20 years ago, mentored by two alumni of the MIT blackjack team. And I did it for a year and a half and I hated it because I was doing math for eight hours at a time in a smoky environment. What I learned is don't put money on the felt unless you have a statistical advantage over the house and bet in proportion to your advantage.

scott love [00:54:49]:
So as you look at client development, don't go all in on a strategy unless you know with a high degree of likelihood it's going to bear fruit. Test it. Okay, we've tested it. We've got this one client, we're going to roll that out, we're going to test it with two more. Now we're going to make it our new policy over time and don't be afraid to make changes. The other part of game theory, and whenever I speak, I used to do a lot of speaking and I still sometimes will outside of the recruiting and legal industry for a professional speaking fee. I use game theory as a metaphor for business development and for conducting business. And there's three different reasons why that's important.

scott love [00:55:25]:
Number one, it helps you to make good strategic decisions. Which actions have the highest likelihood of closing the quickest. If I spend time on this and I don't bear fruit with my goal, will I still have something to show for it in terms of strategy, in terms of how they execute. So, for example, I use this every day. There is a tool I came up with years ago called the telephone discipline tool. I break each hour into a game I'm playing. In my mind. It's me versus myself, okay? I want to see if I can reach three connects now, okay? Next hour and see if I can reach four, connect that.

scott love [00:55:55]:
I want to see how far I can go before I take a break. So it helps in terms of execution. And number three is it helps in terms of recovery. Your resilience. If it's a gain. Did I win or did I lose? The day I had three counteroffers take place in a day. Did I win or did I lose? Well, if I treat it like a game, okay, how can I use that to my advantage now? I'm so glad that happened because I know how to manage the process so that a counter offer coming forward is not likely at all. Something I'm teaching my daughter right now.

scott love [00:56:24]:
If you win or you lose, was it good or was it bad? We had a situation right now. If it didn't work out, these are the benefits. You have to look at it that way. I have a metric, Ben, that I call my time to recover. I had a deal. The deal I mentioned earlier. It would have been a significant fee. The one we're excited about.

scott love [00:56:41]:
Your candidate. We're working on the term sheet the next day. We're so sorry there's not enough interest. And they didn't give me any of the background. I kind of figured out. I don't think the firm's doing well. How long did it take before I got back to feeling like my normal self is five minutes. I gave myself five minutes to say, ah, fna darn it.

scott love [00:57:01]:
Other words. And I actually. I was meeting with the rector of our parish, and we talked about. I told him about this. I have this mantra where I go through and I ask myself, number one, who do I love? My wife and my kids. Sometimes. Number two, who loves me, my wife and my kids? Sometimes. Number three, what am I grateful for? I use these questions as a tactical tool to help me change what I mentioned before.

scott love [00:57:24]:
My emotional state. Because my emotional state impacts performance. 1, 2, 3. And number four, how can I use this situation to my advantage? Number five, how can I get to the point that I'm actually grateful that this situation happened to me? And I do that so often. When candidate didn't take an offer. I've got a conference call right now between a group. They're meeting with the firm's CFO and the firm's managing partner. They may give them an offer, they may not.

scott love [00:57:56]:
Either way, I'm a winner. Because if they don't, I lost out on a big fee. But look at what I learned. And so when you look at the joy of learning, the intellectual discovery and recruiting, that's the win. The growth in your character is the win. The execution. Look at the hard day I did. I stayed on the phone.

scott love [00:58:16]:
X number of hours. I removed X number of distractions from me. That's where we go into game theory on our execution. So we can use game theory as a lens, which we look to have high performance. Even if you didn't grow up that way, you can change today. How long does it take for someone to change their life? Just like that snap of a finger, you made a decision. Back it up with action. Recruiting is a game, Ben.

scott love [00:58:40]:
That's why we can use game theory to help us perform at a higher level and bounce back and enjoy the journey.

Benjamin Mena [00:58:48]:
So when you're sitting there talking about performance and we're talking about going all in and how recruiting is a game, what are the moves a high performance recruiter has to make sure that they're doing day in and day out to

scott love [00:59:01]:
be a big biller, start with making your bed. When you make your bed, that's an action that indicates day has begun, night is over. It's a line of demarcation, and you're starting your day with action. And I learned it's at the Naval Academy, we had to make our bed every day. Make the rack, we called it. It had a blue mattress on it. We call it the blue magnet. Because you couldn't get out of it, you wanted to stay there all day, right? So you get out, you make your bed, and that discipline carries over into other areas.

scott love [00:59:31]:
If you have the discipline, if you have the strategy and also the mindset of recovery, that's a good combination. But it's the execution and the discipline that you have that carries over into other areas. When I start my day and my days are different, but if my day's a recruiting day, I don't open up my email. I start with my database. I open that up first and I make one call. I've pushed through that membrane of resistance because to this day, 30 years in, I still get call reluctance. Just being honest with you. If I'm honest with you, Ben, I'm naturally ready to start making recruiting calls Every day at 4:45pm that's when I'm mentally ready to do it.

scott love [01:00:15]:
What's the problem? I've only got 15 minutes left in the day. So I force myself to take one action, break through that membrane of resistance. I'm going to call this guy. It went to voicemail. That's okay. I made a call. I'm good to go. I'm going to make My coffee.

scott love [01:00:28]:
I'm going to check my email. I'm going to start my calls at whatever time at 9:30. And so it's all about action, taking action, being disciplined. That carries through in other areas.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:39]:
We've covered a lot. And here's the problem, Scott. I should have booked like two hours because I literally feel like we could just keep on going.

scott love [01:00:46]:
Like we'll do another.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:47]:
My mistake.

scott love [01:00:48]:
Yeah, that was my mistake.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:49]:
I'm sorry about this. For, for those listening, before we jump over to the quick fire questions, is there anything else that we need to go deeper on or I should have asked you?

scott love [01:01:00]:
I think one final tip, I'll leave people is to get a journal. Get a journal. And I actually, this is what I keep now I actually started getting a large journal like this. And so I keep track of, of my metrics. I write down my greatest achievements, lessons learned. Sometimes if I'm in my car, I'll text myself. I'll send myself an audio text. Greatest achievement for today is lesson learned is this.

scott love [01:01:25]:
So I have it down. But start with the relationship with yourself. Get a coach. And the best coaches don't have to have recruiting experience. They have to be really good at getting people to understand where to perform and how to perform. It's kind of like this. Tiger woods has been through a lot and he's still an amazing athlete. If he got into recruiting, then if Tiger woods said, every time my dad dragged me to the golf course, in the back of my mind I said, I wish I was in an office called calling people.

scott love [01:01:58]:
And now here's my chance. Do you think Tiger woods could bill a million in his first year? Absolutely right. Because he knows how to perform. Who knows more about recruiting, you or Tiger Woods? You do. So what's the difference? It's the performance. I think getting serious about that, the things we talked about today, the mental aspect of it, then also the execution. And those are the things that I don't. I would love it if 100 out of a hundred people did it.

scott love [01:02:23]:
Knowing human nature. Maybe one out of a hundred. Well, maybe two, maybe more. Statistically, everybody can do it. Everybody in the class can get an A plus. Statistically, that is possible. Is it likely? Not really. Except in certain circumstances.

scott love [01:02:38]:
But that's my hope for everybody listening to make the decision. It's not about the money, it's about the meaning. It's about what you build. That's how you measure it. But that becomes less and less the motivation for you. The motivation should be how many lives can I touch today? How can I make a difference for people that really need it? And how can I make a difference in those organizations and help them achieve their goals? Then you become someone of significance.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:07]:
Amazing quick fire questions. They don't need to be quick answers. Okay. If a recruiter wants to dramatically increase their billings over the next 12 months or in the next 12 months, what would you tell them to eliminate first?

scott love [01:03:20]:
I would say distractions. I would say get very clear on what your goals are and ask yourself, does this take me closer to or further away from my goals? And I did that two years ago. Two years ago, that's when I decided to niche. I looked at where am I spending my time, which groups am I a part of? And I decided not to be a part of certain groups because it didn't help me reach my goals, and it doesn't mean I have to disengage from that group forever. I was a Rotarian. I love Rotary. Wasn't helping me reach my building goals. I needed to hit things.

scott love [01:03:55]:
I'm at the point now, I think I might do that maybe later this year. But get clear on what it is that you want to accomplish and what your plan is to accomplish that. What's in the way, what are the impediments that you have and start making those hard decisions. And sometimes it's not easy. And when you break it down into quarterly, monthly, daily, week, you know, weekly, daily, it becomes habits at the core essence. It's what habits do you have that aren't healthy for you to reach those goals? And you can make changes. And it's going to be difficult. It's not easy, but you can do it.

scott love [01:04:33]:
But it's getting clear on what you want. What does that look like to you? And what's keeping you from getting there and just being judicious with your time.

Benjamin Mena [01:04:43]:
What's a belief about business development that you hold that most recruiters still don't

scott love [01:04:50]:
understand they need you more than you need them? I think that's where it starts. But you've got to get to that point. You've got to build that thought leadership. You've got to go deep, you've got to get nerdy in your niche, and you've got to put the time in. That's what it is. The caveat is you have to be willing to put the time in and do the work.

Benjamin Mena [01:05:10]:
What are some of the best business development books that you've read or that you love?

scott love [01:05:17]:
I would say start with these two. The Shortlist by David Ackert and also the Activator Advantage by Tom Dixon. Both of those authors, they've become very close friends. David Akard, I've spoken at least four of his managing partner roundtable retreats. And then this book I mentioned, the business development shift, I'd say. And this one, like I mentioned, it'll probably be out. Actually, I think it's out this week, whenever you're releasing it mid March. Anyways, this book, I think by Doug Ott is just such a great book.

scott love [01:05:47]:
It teaches you about how to keep intellectually engaged with people, how to be curious. And if you go to the Rainmaking podcast, you can scroll through and see the books of the authors that we've had there. But I would say start with those three. That'd be a good start.

Benjamin Mena [01:06:05]:
You trained a lot of recruiters. You are always introspective. You look at the data of what you do constantly. And I know I've asked you this question before, but you're at a different point in your life. You've learned more, you've grown more, you've seen more. If you could go back in time and have a conversation with yourself, Little Scott, early days of recruiting, what would you tell yourself? Mostly curious if it's changed.

scott love [01:06:31]:
I would say what I did when I started my own firm because I didn't even know recruiting was an industry band. I think I got fired from that company. I was literally in a one bedroom apartment with a folding card table back then. And I made a decision. I said, I'm going to take 10% of my billings and I'm going to go to seminars I'm going to go to. And there was a group that isn't in existence, where every month they'd have a motivational speaker come in Phoenix, where I lived, and it'd have Nito Cabane. People like that. Anytime those speakers had an offering, I've got $350 worth of my books and tapes.

scott love [01:07:06]:
Back then I would buy it all. I would go to every seminar I could. I would be willing to invest. So I would go back in time. I tell myself, do a little bit more. The other thing I would say is don't get distracted by shiny objects. So funny. My daughter who has adhd, she diagnosed me with ADHD bit.

scott love [01:07:27]:
And I think she's right. She said, dad, yeah, I know, I know that's right. But tie yourself to the mast. Don't be afraid to do one thing or if you do multiple things. They need to have a nexus. That's why. And I started the media company and my Son joined me initially, and then he got hired away by a tech media company with a much bigger budget. But that's going to be like my retirement business.

scott love [01:07:50]:
I'm 59 now. In about two years, maybe in about a year, I'm going to be hiring recruiters, good recruiters, teaching them legal, managing the team, phasing out, speaking at legal conferences, writing more books, and kind of building a team and then phasing out and then having something that people can get an equity stake in, not now, but in at least a year, maybe two years, and then kind of doing other things. But anything I do, it. It connects with my niche. It helps me get closer to my goal goals. It can't be this and I'm going to start a puppy farm. They can't be two different things. So I would go back in time and I would say, don't do things that distract you away from recruiting.

scott love [01:08:32]:
It's a great business. There's no other industry out there like that where people like us can do economically well and make the difference that we have. And it's a lot of fun. The work, the grind of the calls and the deep conversations with people that are going through critical change where at that point in life, next to their significant other, you're the most important person in their life. It's very precious. And I cherish that trust, and I think that's really the joy of it. Ben. So that's what I would tell myself, do more.

scott love [01:09:03]:
Don't get distracted. Keep your head down. Keep grinding it out. It's worth it.

Benjamin Mena [01:09:08]:
Scott, I got one more question for you. You've had the chance to talk to, at this point, tens of thousands of recruiters. I'm sure you've gotten so many questions around business development. How do I increase my billings? How do I make an impact? How do I do all these things over this time and over all those conversations, you ever just wonder or wish, like, man, I just some. I wish somebody would ask this one question, but they never do. What would be that question and what would be that answer?

scott love [01:09:39]:
The question would be, where should I be? What are the trends? And with any sort of trend, there's two schools of thoughts. You can either go on that trend or you can go in the opposite direction. There are some trends I'm on the trend. Others I'm going in the opposite direction. I'm predicting that LinkedIn is not going to be the place where you're going to find a lot of candidates in the future. I think it's become a spamiverse. Really. I think there's so much out there on LinkedIn.

scott love [01:10:03]:
I think you're going to start finding people not engaging anymore. You're going to start seeing people take their LinkedIn profiles off because who are they getting reach outs from people like us and other salespeople. It's just annoying after a period of time. I think LinkedIn in the next two years, I think it's just not going to be as cool as it is right now. So the question we ask ourselves is how can I, where do I need to be? What are those trends? I don't think AI. I think it's good for some things. My own trend is I'm focusing more on people skills and one on one personal engagement. I'm using technology to scale that as much as I can, but I'm focusing more on personal development, interconnection, interpersonal relationship skills.

scott love [01:10:44]:
So answering the question, where do I need to be? You can either go along with the trend, you can be ahead of the trend, or you can go in the opposite direction. There's all different ways to look at that.

Benjamin Mena [01:10:53]:
Awesome. Well, Scott, if anybody wants to follow you, how did they go about doing that?

scott love [01:10:59]:
I'd say for people listening, go to the podcast, the rainmakingpodcast.com it's a top 2% show globally. It's not legal specific. I do have on Tuesdays. Sometimes on Tuesdays we have legal specific shows and you can always tell which one's legal, which one's for general business development. But every Thursday it's general business development. You can Google it, the Rainmaking Podcast. And then also for $200 a year, we have our magazine, the rainmaking magazine. It's 19 bucks a month on a month to month basis.

scott love [01:11:29]:
And that's something where those are the guests that have been on the show. And I decided to launch that as a media company. But there's a lot of resources. But either of those platforms, people can reach out to me at awesome.

Benjamin Mena [01:11:41]:
And before I let you go, because I could easily talk for another like two hours with you, just like we always have. Is there anything else that you want to leave with the listeners?

scott love [01:11:50]:
I would tell them to be a student of recruiting. Don't get too big for your britches, don't believe your press releases about yourself. Stay hungry and give, give back to others. Service work. It's so funny. Shrove Tuesday in our parish. My daughter's part of the youth group. I'm driving her to Tuesday night.

scott love [01:12:10]:
They're going to make pancakes for the congregation and she looked at me says, dad, I can't believe I'm having to work and make pancakes for everybody. I get nothing out of this. And I said, that's the problem point. I said, that's the point. Giving of yourself without any expectation of return to people who can benefit from it, that's where you find joy. And I think that's something we can never forget is get involved in some sort of service work where you're giving to other people without any expectation of benefit. That's the joy ban.

Benjamin Mena [01:12:36]:
Well, Scott, I just want to say thank you so much for coming back. Look down at the time. I'm like, oh my God, we're already at the hour marks. And I'm like, I got to start. Like I. For the listeners, I had so many different directions. I was ready to go. So I guess we have to do this again sometime in the future.

scott love [01:12:52]:
We'll do it again. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you again for having me. Ben, this is fantastic.

Benjamin Mena [01:12:56]:
But for those listening, this is the year. This is the year to go all in. This is the year to achieve your dreams. 2026. Write it down. Write your goals down. Work towards your goals. Everything depends on it.

Benjamin Mena [01:13:13]:
Make it happen. And Scott for you. Can't wait to see you in Paris, buddy.

scott love [01:13:18]:
Thank you, Ben. I look forward to it.

Benjamin Mena [01:13:21]:
I've spent years talking to big billers and the thing that usually sets them apart is judgment. The gut feeling they bring to a moment of truth in a deal. The question that surfaces, the real objection, the reframe that regains control of a stalling process, the move they make when a candidate goes quiet. Normally that kind of instinct comes from years on the desk. And when you're running 15 live processes at once, you don't have time to engineer that level of thinking into every moment. So too much is left to chance. Until now. Millie analyzes every detail of your live deals and builds the exact strategy you need.

Benjamin Mena [01:13:55]:
Powered by a curated knowledge base from elite recruiters. It's encoded intuition, the judgment and gut feel of big billers translated into real time guidance you can use for every single process. Before every call, you get sharp contextual preparation so you can lead from the first minute in your inbox. High caliber emails are already drafted. Testing, commitment, checking fit, keeping momentum. Users save an hour a day on email alone and the way they control calls changes completely. If you've been looking for that AI edge that every top biller is using, try mill e for free today. You know the resume never tells the full story.

Benjamin Mena [01:14:28]:
Candidates share what really matters during conversations on calls and interviews over email, their motivations, salary expectations, plans to relocate. Most of that detail ends up buried in notes and forgotten. Atlas changes that. It's the AI first recruitment platform. Built to eliminate admin, it captures every conversation automatically and turns it into something you can use with MagicSearch. You can ask Atlas questions like who talked about wanting a four day week? Or who mentioned they're open to relocating next year? It searches across your entire database and pulls the answers instantly. No keyword guessing and and no digging through old notes. You get insight from real conversations, not limited resume fields.

Benjamin Mena [01:15:07]:
Atlas also makes BD easier with opportunities you can track and grow client relationships powered by generative AI and built into your existing workflow. If you want visibility, smart dashboards give you a clear view of the pipeline across your business. And that's not theory. Atlas customers have reported over 40% EBITDA growth and over 80% increase in monthly billings after adopting the platform. It's built for agencies that want to grow without adding more manual work. Don't miss the future of recruitment. Get started with Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer at recruit with atlas.com thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed hit, subscribe and leave a rating.