Product Marketing vs Solution Marketing with Will McGhee Part 1

Intro [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the elite recruiter podcast with your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:20]:

I'm excited about this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast because I have my special guest, Will McGee, to talk about product marketing versus solution marketing. And Biller is the founder of recruiting with dynamite, and here's one of the things I'm excited about. Biller coming on and sharing with you guys. He for over a decade, he has been a consistent big bower. And when I talk about a big bow, 500 k or more every single year consistently for a decade too. He knows what he's talking about. And as you guys can feel it out there, The world of recruiting is changing. You could just feel it every day. And Will's gonna talk about how to stay ahead of the game and how to use product marketing and solution marketing to get ahead. So we'll welcome to the podcast.

Will McGhee [00:01:09]:

Thank you so much, Ben. Happy to be here, man.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:11]:

As we get started every time, How did you end up in this wonderful world of recruiting?

Will McGhee [00:01:17]:

Oh, man. I fell into it. I mean, I I don't think anybody's been in this world and was like, Oh, I'm gonna be a recruiter when I grow up. I know only one person that's done it. I always talk about it. it's literally the only person I've ever met. was like, I wanna be an agency recruiter, but I was in sales. I I did oh, my phone just take a step back. My parents were always, like, entrepreneurial, so my dad was an salesperson. My mom was a or is a real estate broker. I got my real estate license at 18 I love technology. I try to find some sort of, like, mix between real estate and tech. So I found myself in colocation, which if you guys don't know what that is, it's space power cooling for server farms and connectivity. Right? So, I worked at a company called CoreSite, colocation was cool. CoreSite was fun. I it's just like it was what I realized was it was very, very, like, stuffy, like old school, old money, you know, real estate plays and, like, it was there are certain things that were in the industry that I wasn't really excited about, and it just wasn't my thing. I was taking the train from Orange County every day off to LA. It's Los Angeles. and I had a trained friend who basically was like, yeah. I my boyfriend is in recruiting if you I think you'd be great at it. you should talk to him. It's like, what's recruiting? And she was like, yeah. Just talk to him. So I'd I ended up talking to him, and we're good friends now. and he introduced me into, cybercoders. And at the time, cybercoders was about 120, 130 people They've been around for about 8 or 9 years, and I was just blown away. Right? Like, the earning potential, the waffle Wall Street had come out, like, 2 or or is about to come out, right, like, in a year or 2. I remember, like, being there, and I was like, wow. Like, Cyber Coaches is kinda like wolf of Wall Street. Like, I think it's like it was wild. Like, we threw, like, crazy parties. It was it was an it was a it was a crazy place to be at the time. And, you know, immediately fell in love with the industry. Right? It was a lot of fun. You're helping people. You're making a lot of money. And, you know, It was I was, like, 24 at the time, 25. Just out of college, making 6 figures. Like, none of my friends are doing that. Right? And and I just quickly, like, got onto it, and it just kinda fit into everything I liked, which is, like, psychology and, you know, the thing I liked about, like, real estate was, like, you always had something new to sell, and I kinda felt like the same way where it was kind of that that feeling of, like, oh, well, I it it felt like you're being a middle man, if you will. So it was good. I felt there was a lot of correlation, so that's how I found recruiting. And ever since I've I've been in it, so

Benjamin Mena [00:04:00]:

and then talk about your track from cybercoders to where you are now.

Will McGhee [00:04:04]:

Okay. So cybercoders started 2012. And You know, I was broke. I was like, I had sold my car. Like, like, I was this is how broke I was. So I was so broke. I had to sell my car to make ends meet, and then I borrowed my one of my mom's cars. She had, like, another car that she could let me borrow for a little while. and, like, it was bad. It was, like, 2000 like, so it was right out of the out of, like, like, the 2008 recessions. So, you know, things are starting to pick back up, but I was selling cheesecakes at Costco, man. Like, it was bad. So I got in the I got in the cyber coders and yeah. It it it was like It was good the 1st 6 months, but I it was really hard for me to kinda I had a slow start. And finally, like, I took it seriously, and I just committed And I I think I was, like, playing around a lot. I was partying a lot at the time, and I just said, you know, screw it. Like, I I wanna make I wanna make money. I had, like, like, chip on my shoulder because I had a girl who's now my wife who was just kinda, like, denying me. Like, she was like, no. I don't wanna talk to you. Like, you're a scrub. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna show you, like, so I I just, like, blew it up, put a bunch of activity in, did, like, My 1st year, I did about 5.75 or some land 600. And then, made rookie rookie the quarter once or twice and then did really good. 2nd year took my foot off the gas a little bit, but I did, like, 3 something. And then, 3rd year did, like, seven something around there. So did really well, moved up to, like, a lead position, and it didn't really wanna, like and it, like, kind of the direction that CyberCoders are going. Like, CyberCoders was going, and there's no fault to it. Like, CyberCoders is a business unit. It's general. It's broad. It was growing rapidly. Right? We went from a hundred people to, like, 500 people really quickly, but the idea was, like, just get as much out there as possible. pull in as many opportunities as possible, you know, utilize the database. And at that time, there wasn't really a lot of, like, technology around recruiting. So, like, cyber coaches had this really cool, like, proprietary system that allowed you to do deals really fast. And I knew I wanted something more, more like relationship driven stuff. So I I moved out of CyberCoders year 4. I went to a company called Consul. They were starting up a branch out in Santa Monica. And that was really cool because, like, from there, I actually learned really, like, deep specialization recruiting. Like, I was always kind of like a generalist, like, inside because you're kinda just going after whatever's available, like, whatever's hot in the market. And then there, I was like, you know, focus on a niche. Go after it. Like, there was magento and you know, AI and, you know, autonomous driving, like, kind of plays that were there. And I came in as director of business development, so I helped build out, like, a pipeline of business. I wasn't on a producing desk there. It was more of just, like, coaching and growing people. And, and then I found Tima. Tima was really cool because it kinda gave me this opportunity to expand my my, my entrepreneurial spirit without having to take a big risk. So you go in and you basically start up your own business, your own LLC, and you kinda have a franchise model and it was a great network of recruiters that allowed you to tap into different resources. You could be a full desk recruiter if you wanted to or have to ask whatever you wanted to do, but really great, great experience that kinda led me to a talent. And a talent now is, You know, I had a a sort of brief stint on another startup recruiter recruiting firm. That's not worth mentioning, but a talent allowed me to you know, take a lot of what I had learned over the years and, like, things I want I had theorized about, like, marketing efforts and advertising and

Benjamin Mena [00:07:54]:

using content

Will McGhee [00:07:54]:

to drive traffic to not just your roles, but to bring in clients and have this kind of differentiation using using automation. I was really big into, like, tools. I'm a lazy guy. So just so you know, I'm, like, really lazy. And I use it as, like, kind of my superpower because I'm so lazy that I wanna get everything done as quickly as possible. So I I really emphasize on, like, automation and, like, trying to, you know, make myself super human, if you will, without losing personalization and without losing connectivity. And so, that is, like, big for me. And and I just did that with I tried to leverage as much automation or leverage as I possibly could in in a talent, and it was great because we were even though we started 2 months before the pandemic, like, we were still able to do about 1,500,000 in about two and a half, 3 years. So

Benjamin Mena [00:08:52]:

and that turned into recruiting with dynamite.

Will McGhee [00:08:55]:

Yeah. So, like, I've always had this, like, operations training, automation, like, kinda mind and marketing mind. Right? And I knew I always wanted to do something in marketing and coaching and growing other recruiters because I love this space, and I think there's a lot of room for it. And there's just not a lot of people that are actually teaching and growing other recruiters, which is why I like your podcast so much is because you're bringing on people express it and, like, letting them share their experience And I think there's a lot of different ones, and you I think, you know, recruiters just don't have that outlet. So and now that it's growing, it's it's really cool. So, yeah, recruiting with dynamite kinda was like it's always always in the back of my mind, but in at the end of 2022, I was like, it's time to just, like, do something I'm really excited about, and I'm, like, really passionate about and, like, just follow my why and, like, my my, my wu as one of my mentors says, like, I really wanted to, like, do something different. And so I started the newsletter. Just, like, Hey. Like, let's see what happens. And then through the newsletter, I was able to start a consultation, and the consultation turned into a cohort, and the cohort now is turning into a digital course, and we're now, like, re it's it's, like, growing. And it's it's really cool. Like, and I, like, I always laugh because I'm like, I have not even like, my website just launched. Like, it just dropped. So in 7 months, like, I haven't even had a website. It's just been going so fast. And, like, we've been making money, and, like, I haven't done any direct emailing. I haven't done any, like, messaging. It's just, like, all organic. And I'm like, I don't have enough time, and I'm like, kinda figuring out, like, how do I, like, manage this? So it it's been a, like, good experiment because You know, it's it's allowed me to really follow my passion, which is, like, this marketing operations, automation side of things. So it's cool.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:48]:

Yeah. Alright. That is awesome. Great story on how you got into the space where you're going. And, I mean, kind of funny thing you're talking about a website. I think it took me 80 episodes. to get a website for the the recruit the lead recruiter podcast. I was like, I see you need a website for this stuff. I don't know. I just keep working. I have interviews. I post them. People like finding. I have no clue how people find it. Anyways, that's another topic for another day. Alright. Through the one thing everybody's been asking about, and I get the most feedback on, how do you bring in new clients? And that's gonna talk about, like, the different ways of marketing. So Yeah. I think

Will McGhee [00:11:24]:

I think, like, a lot of people kind of fall into a trap of looking at their business development efforts as, like, a kind of 1-sided thing. Right? They're they're very much focused on what worked before, what has worked in the past, And they a lot of recruiters haven't evolved. Right? And then that's kinda like no fault to their own because I think a lot of times when we look at how we go to how do we go to market? when we started off in recruiting, you were put on a desk and told, hey. here's a a really great dot net developer. I want you to go market market this person to all the dot net shops, or here's a great accountant want you to go market all to the all the accountants, accounting firms or, you know, companies that need accountants, in the area. Right? And you never told really why you're you were doing that or, like, what this person did or what kind of value, you know, these roles end up being for the company, and and it's just like, here's a hot market. And Usually, that's being done by somebody who was a biller that moved into a management role and doesn't really have management experience. They were just They found a hot market. They build really well for a couple years, and then they got out, and they now are managing people. They're like, okay. Great. Like, you're not teaching me anything. And then the founder is probably a biller who did really well, and now was like, oh, I could do this and started his own company or her co own company. Right? And so it's like, so you just kind of, like, you're kinda going, and, like, this old school mentality of just, like, hit the numbers, hit the books. And I think the market is in as entirety has changed, like, things like social media, AI, automation, like, email marketing, they they've all shifted in a direction. I think a lot of recruiters are struggling to adapt to right now because when it's hot and we're used to that. If we get used to, like, hot markets, like, in tech, for example, in in 2021, you could literally put out whatever message you wanted to. Like, it did not matter. You put out a message, and you could get clients. And That's not the case today. Right? And so you're not really evaluating, you know, how you're going to market anymore, and you're wondering why things are aren't working. So today, I think the difference is you really need to look at how how you're going to market and what your offering is, your total offering is. And I believe that if you're gonna focus on product marketing, which is really candidate based marketing. So MPC, like, your product is your inventory of candidates. So you have to have a really good inventory candidates. You have to be focused on a very specific niche, or and let's put it this way. I'm not big on niching, Ben. I know a lot of people say niche, niche, niche. I think you can I think you need to niche and understand a market. but it doesn't mean you have to stay in that market. I think the overly niching is what got is getting people into trouble right now because they're not adapting to where the money's going. Right? So one of the big things I talk about is, you know, find where the money's going first. Right? So find the industry that's hot find a position within that industry that is just as hot or it has some sort of heat in it, and it's hard to find, but there's candidates available. Like, what you don't wanna do is go into space exploration, for example, and go try and find astronauts. Like, that's not thing that you're gonna do because there's just not enough people you need to validate your market. But if space exploration is getting funding right now and you're an accountant recruiter, then, like, go find accountant's 1st phase expiration companies. Right? So, and then Lastly, you need to have a great MPC or a great candidate pool that fits into that market with those type of titles. So if you do that, your business development efforts are gonna go on like, they're gonna be on fire, and that's the that's the 30, 20, 30% fee agreement. Yeah. Like, I've got great candidates. Do you wanna look at this? Because this person fits a particular mold of what you're looking for. Now the other part of that is if you don't understand your market and you don't know what needs this person is actually going to fulfill, then you're fighting an uphill battle because yeah. There's candidates everywhere. Right? but you if you have those 3 components and understand where exactly that candidate's gonna fit in and what kind of transformation that candidate's gonna do for your client, then you're able to, you know, have a better messaging better content creation, just literally biller. Every everything becomes biller, and you're able to drive a business development machine. So that's the product MPC way, and that's the most, like, traditional way that I think a lot of people have kind of faltered away from. and just looked at what's the experience of this candidate. I'm gonna send them, like, I have an accountant that has great, you know, big 4 experience and worked at, you know, a large, you know, multinational series c company, I'm gonna send them out to all the tech companies in the country. And it's like but does it does that person fit? Right? Like, is that the right person for a series a company or, let's say, an enterprise company, like, what those 2 types of companies have very different needs and you need to be able to address those things. So that's the product side. Okay. Did I answer

Benjamin Mena [00:17:06]:

your question? No. That was a and we'll probably do a little bit of a deep dive on the product side But you say you've talked about product. You've talked about solution marketing. What is solution marketing?

Will McGhee [00:17:16]:

So, yeah, it so, like, A lot of recruiters, like so Lavender, is one of my favorite has some of my favorite content creators right now on sales marketing and emailing. Right? Lavinder talks about they they had this or I should say they had this game show segment with, Biller Achin in there, another one of their marketing team members. And that segment basically said, is it AI or is it human, right, these emails? And one of the one of the emails was an ai written recruiting email. And the recruiting email goes Yeah. We're this kind of company. We handle these types of roles, and we're, you know, best in class, and we've got a great pool of candidates that can fit your yadayadayada. Right? So that's a solution you're not even selling the like, you're not really even selling the candidate. You're selling, like, the company and what they can provide as far as, like, The company ends up being the hero versus the candidate being the hero or the solution. Right? So A lot of times, I think when we we talk about company or when we talk about what we can do or history or case studies or whatever, you're really trying to sell a solution. Like, that's what you're really trying to sell. And so that solution sells has very different like, you're using different needs and desire states, like, versus in product. Product, you can talk about, like, literally costs you can talk about time and quality. With solutions, you're talking more about efficiency and effectiveness and things like that. And so if you're gonna go solution oriented, like, you have to have something that differentiates. And if you're not differentiated, then You're really not a solution, and it also has to that differentiation, specifically, as you say this, you have to have something that differentiates and it it hits a specific need for a very specific audience. So let's say, like, you are a CFO or accounting recruiting firm, your knee your solution should be around the needs and and wants of that CFO. And then on top of that, you probably aren't selling on a commission base, like a fee percentage. we should start looking at how do you sell on a retainer or a consultation service that that allows you to have a recurring revenue or a fixed cost that allows you to consult and create services for that person. So that's the solution. Right? You're creating a solution for that specific hiring manager, that specific team. So Having a solution based marketing system is very different, and there's not a whole lot of differential plays that we have in recruiting now. Like, You can't say you have a great tech tech stack. You can't talk about AI. You can't talk about database, like everyone has that now. So your solution has to really, really, really fit the need of your target market and, it has to be really catered to that that specific that specific hiring manager or team.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:40]:

I'd love for the you to maybe

Will McGhee [00:20:41]:

give the listeners some ideas

Benjamin Mena [00:20:41]:

and some examples of some solution based marketing I will say, like, I love the idea of your talk with the way that you're talking about it, and I've never thought about this. But, like, we actually do work with we're in the Govcon space. So within government contracting, there's a lot of proposals. There's a lot of that.

Will McGhee [00:20:59]:

Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:21:00]:

And, you know, there's many times we've come in and we're not writing the proposal. but we're talking about we we actually get paid to come and talk about what the market looks like, yeah, to help with team's winning proposal.

Will McGhee [00:21:13]:

Yeah. So -- That's funny. I was actually gonna use government contract as we as an example, because one of our one of our clients is does government contracts as well. And so that was literally he sat down and looked at What is this is positioning? How is he coming at the market? And he was like, I'm I'm not he is first of all, he goes, Biller, I'm I'm a cold caller. I cold call all the time. And I go, I'm not cold called in 7 years. 7 years, I haven't cold called. So I don't cold call. And I warm call. Right? I make great introductions. I have good in LinkedIn interactions. I pull I I pull candidate our clients and candidates in I don't push so much. Right? So and that's good for me. Like, it's it might not work for a larger organization just as an FYI because It's just different. As an individual, I can bill 35100 k and be happy. Right? But so He goes, yeah, I I'm cold calling. I'm cold calling. I I'm not getting anywhere. And I go, okay. Like, let's look at what your offering is. Are you product or solution? And he's like, well, I've got, you know, I've got this stuff, and he's telling me all about, like, the services part. And I'm like, dude, you're a solution guy. So that's cool. Like, let's stick with solution. And if your solution lets, like, pivot your messaging. So what specifically are you doing? Like, how how is this fitting the needs for your client? What are some of the benefits of having someone who has, like, you're kinda licensing because this person has the ability to really, like, check and identify clearance. Like, right? And he a lot of people say they have clearance, but it might be expiring or, you know, they've having add it in a while or whatever it is. So he's able to, like, create these, like, really unique solutions that are very specific to government contracts and DOD clearance stuff. And so it's like, dude, you Let's just talk about that and how it's gonna help win more business. Right? So that's that was my that's like my one of my favorite examples because He ended up going like, we created a we created a 2 sentence message. I actually created a longer message. I'm not gonna lie. It was a little bit more verb verbose. I don't know if you can tell I'm a very verbose person, but I try I it's very hard for me to to shrink things down. So, I'm trying to shrink it down. I'm trying to shrink it down. And then I give him him I give him my my piece, and then he takes it, and he just makes a 2 sentence message. he starts going to LinkedIn, and he doesn't even follow the rest of the sequence. Like, he's just first message out. He wins like a 185 k in business in his 1st 2 weeks. And I'm like, There you go. Right? So he found a very specific market. He found a very specific hiring manager or or need that that needed to be filled, and a pain point that was that they were dealing with. And it happened to be in the recruiting and HR function of it, and he was able to capitalize on it because he talked about winning more business and how it was gonna help them win more proposals knowing that they had this, you know, recruiting arm that could partner up with them, essentially. And and then it was all about creating an offering, right, from there. So you know, is it monthly? Is it, you know, flat fee per hire? Is it success based or whatever it is? But, again, you're not coming at it in a like, in that case, like, you it's harder. It's not that you can't do it. I just wouldn't suggest it. I think it's better that you have a monthly recurring revenue and you end up making yourself more of an ingrained partnership that you can expand and you can scale your company with these companies, right, So you're now part of the solution. It's no longer you're not your candidates aren't the solution anymore. It's your it's your your recruiting service at that point. So, yeah, that's a that's a prime perfect example. Love it.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:58]:

I hope that's it.

Will McGhee [00:25:00]:

That's funny.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:00]:

The joys of Gufcon is.

Will McGhee [00:25:02]:

Gufcon, man. It's like, That space is interesting, man. It's like, it's if you if you got it, and right now, it's hot because if you if you're following the money, Where's all the funding going? Where's all the jobs being created? Guess what? It's in gov, and it's a and it's like, That's where it's at. And AI, those two places where the where the funding's going, and it's all the money.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:24]:

It's it's a funny thing when, Metifree was when Web 3 was hot, we were looking at, like, let's leave Govcon and then Web 3 died down. And, like, Govcon's just like, alright. Well, talking about the economy going downhill and guess what's, cease funded on 5 year contracts.

Will McGhee [00:25:39]:

Government. Exactly. I mean, I mean, Ben, you're hitting the the nail in the head. Right? Like, at that's I I talked to her, Curtis, daily. And they're like, well, I'm working in Scala or I'm working in Golang. I'm I'm working in ai or, computer vision and autonomous driving and all of a sudden, I'm like, guys, like, you're industry is dying right now. And if you don't adapt, you're not gonna feed your family. So adapt, figure it out, move on, find another market, validate that market, and hopefully find a market that's gonna grow long term. Like, you don't wanna just keep jumping, But I've changed markets, like, five times, and I have no problems with it because I just do it really well.

Benjamin Mena [00:26:22]:

Well, I and I think it's like, I I do believe in like, nichey down, but do you think that people niche down so much that it becomes our identity and that's why they can't make a move?

Will McGhee [00:26:31]:

That's exactly it. They they're they're afraid of the failure a lot of the times. And and and it's it's also just the inability to do market research. Again, we go back to the the example I gave earlier, which is, hey. You and you're in a biller company when when we're at cybercoders, I'll give you this example. When we're at cybercoders, I was told, go after Java, go after I've or Android or mobile engineers, and, like, dot net or something like that. It was, like, pick 3 spaces in the tech in the software engineering side and go after it. And I did, and it was great. And it it worked fantastically. My 1st year, like I said, I did about 55 or 600 k, and it was awesome. my big year at cybercoders, my 700 k year at cybercoders, I said screw all that. I focused on finding a market that was getting funding, and this is from my mentor. My mentor at the time basically was like, stop going after regular roles. like, follow the money and look at where the money's going and what they're trying to do and then go. So I found that there was, like,

Intro [00:27:37]:

1300

Will McGhee [00:27:38]:

advertising tech companies in the United States. And all of them are getting, like, 10 to

Intro [00:27:43]:

$50,000,000

Will McGhee [00:27:44]:

in funding rounds trying to beat PubMatic Open X, and I can't remember the other one that was in the time. So I looked at that, and I was like, what are they trying to do? All these companies are trying to figure out programmatic. Didn't know what programmatic was. Had no clue, but I knew there was, like, a big market there. And so I learn, developed, understood, went to market, called a bunch of product managers at those companies to get an understanding what programmatic does, And I ended up getting this really great candidate from PubMatic. That was a VP from PubMatic. I got another candidate that was a director at OpenX. And then I had these great can I had a and then I had a senior senior engine or a senior product manager from one of the other companies. Right? And so I had 3 candidates from all different variations of seniority. And I was able to go to market and say, hey. Like, I'm like, I've got, you know, these candidates from the companies that you're trying to be Do you wanna take a look at them? And it was like, yeah. Like and it was easy. It I got, like, a 50% reply rate, and it might that that quarter, I did, like, 385 in biller, and it was, like, insane. Right? It was an insane quarter. And it it was, like, tapping into FOMO and tapping into what's hot. It was it wasn't hard. I I didn't feel like I was jumping from position to position. I did mushroom those accounts. Right? I would go in this product. I'd find software engineering roles. I'd tap into those. And, it was great. That's how you do it, though. Like, you you gotta follow the money. You gotta adjust, and I think a lot of people are scared because they've found their identity, like you said, or found their success in that, and they haven't learned to do market research. And then the the caveat to that is if I trend sent it trans trend trendsetted at the company that I was at at cybercoders, and so everybody started doing ad tech. And then that's the that's the funny part is that everybody kinda just follows along. You need to be the trendsetter. You need to find it before everyone else does. and watch it. Listen to the news. What's going on? Where is the money going? Follow that. Follow that stuff because, you know, if you're following whatever the market's doing, you're gonna be left behind or you're you're you're climbing uphill. You wanna be the first to get to that that that gold mine so you can claim your stake. And, and then you can be there long longer term. You're not just jumping around.

Benjamin Mena [00:30:08]:

Awesome. And real quick, I'm gonna ask you a inaction question. So when you talk about, like, you found these great candidates and you MPC them.

Will McGhee [00:30:17]:

Mhmm.

Benjamin Mena [00:30:17]:

Like, What is a powerful MPC email or MPC message that gets responses?

Will McGhee [00:30:24]:

Great question. So like I had mentioned before, Foma was a big thing for me. So I'd if I can find FOMO, I am, like, on it. I'm just like, I don't care what it is. I did the web 3 thing when it first was coming out. in 2016 or 17. I did AI for a little while. Right? So I if I can find FOMO, I'm a I'm a tap into that FOMO. But to answer that question, I think now when you're coming into an more established market, it's all about understanding before and after states. So there's a really great course on digital marketer called the the avatar canvas. I don't know. I'll I'll put a link in it. I'll send it over to you, but digital marketers ran by a guy named Ryan Dice. amazing courses on their marketing, and it's just a deep roll of decks of information. And I've been a member of that for the last 5 years, I think. So their before and after, their avatar canvas is really cool because they talk about you you finding the before state and the after state of your high of your target market, and you really niche it down. You create this, like, you literally create a a can a canvas of a person, you create a persona in Avatar, and you might have, like, several avatars for your your particular field Each one of those avatars have very different needs, have very different wants, have very different desires with feeling different pains, all these things are happening, And so when you create that before and after state, your your messaging becomes so much biller. And it becomes highly contextualized and you have better identifiers. Right? So my messaging now that we, you know, we've delved into this and we trained on it, is all about really finding what your candidates, if you're doing product based marketing, what your candidates and how they are taking and transitioning your their particular demographic or firmographic. from this, like, terrible before state and moving them into this, ideal after state. And then all we do is create our messaging around their after state. Right? The before state helps us identify and be able to say, okay. You're dealing with this problem, and then all our messaging kinda comes in the conversation as if you are already part of it. Right? So, a quick example in the in the ad tech space that I'm talking about, it's like, hey. Hey, John. You know, at the end of the day, we have these or ad tech is dealing with a lot of funding in the product and into programmatic advertising, I have candidates coming out of or I noticed that your company hasn't put a programmatic offering up. Are you interested in looking at candidates coming out of Pubmatt And is that something that's looking out, like, in in your future production or whatever in your future product lines or releases? Right? So that's a really quick message. that's getting them from a specific state to an an alternate state, which is I'm not even talking about the candidate right now, because I don't even know if they have a position open for that candidate. But if I have an idea that they're going to be If I now know that they got funding for programmatic offerings, now I can come at them and be very ahead of the curve and say, I've got a candidate from programmatic, from, Open X, they have this experience, this experience, this experience, doing this with this company at your same stage and had helped them get to this next stage, right, which is that ideal state. So that taps into a better emotional state to your hiring manager. that lets them know that you understand their problem and what they're trying to get to, what their aim is with this type of position. So in an accounting world, you might have an MPC or you have a might have a great candidate coming from, like, again, from a series c startup. that, had biller 4 experience. And that Series C startup, like, they were there from series a. So you might wanna go find series b series a companies that might be able to utilize this person because they have very specific experience and then get them into a better title or better position with a better pay at those companies and say, like, you know, this person is help has helped grow companies and Crow, the financial dealings of whatever on their on their FP and a and their accounting teams. to get them to a series c. There are integral parts in their funding rounds or whatever it is because now you're talking about those pains and that they're dealing with, then it irrational state of where they're gonna go with this type of candidate. So it's really just about just finding those those those points instead of just listing off -- experience. I've oh, they've got, you know, or listing off, like, the check mark stuff. Like, they've they come from You know, Harvard or whatever, right, at the end of the day, like, is that again, does that help them? Is do you know if that's your, like, you gotta figure that out. But you you you talk about stuff that matters to the the hiring manager long time.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:53]:

Okay. I what I'm understanding is really understand you know, talk about stuff that matters, where the companies wanna go, but also you have to understand your market.

Will McGhee [00:36:05]:

Yeah. 1000%. to do these -- If you don't understand your market, you probably shouldn't be in the market. Like, that's, like, it it's like it's like a contractor coming to your house and being like, Oh, like, you need air conditioning. Great. Can you install it? Yeah. I can install it, but let me go look up there. Oh, I what are these things? Oh, those are our vents. Like, you wouldn't trust him. Right? You wouldn't trust that person to come in and do your your air conditioning for you. Right? So, like, what? So how are you going to go to market without understanding, like, the moving parts of what it is that your candidates do. And, honestly, your candidates actually tell you all that stuff. So, like, I I I'm a big believer if you don't know call your call the ideal candidate that would look good for your type of client and have those conversations. What did you do? Ask better questions. What did you do before or what was it like before you jumped on board, and what was it like after you jumped on board? What kind of, things were your was your manager focused on when you jumped in the company? And what are they now focused on after that you're here? Like, How's their job been been better? Like, what's your team like now that you're there? Right? Cause now you're talk they'll tell you the transformational state. They tell you that transformation. And that's what you're selling as a transformation.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:28]:

Well and that, you know okay. Now now we're going even deeper on this. So writing better emails, understanding the market, and now you're also saying that we need to do a bit of a deeper dive on candidates.

Will McGhee [00:37:40]:

Yeah. To be able to

Benjamin Mena [00:37:41]:

understand it, ask good good questions.

Will McGhee [00:37:43]:

Yeah. Like, and and and in your intake calls, have better questions on your intake hold as your clients. Where are you at now? What are you hoping to get to? You know, and don't ask, like, if you didn't do the research, like, you shouldn't have a call. don't ask stuff about, like, what their product does, who their market is. Like, none of that shit. Don't ask that. Like, be very specific. Like, Okay. Looking at your company, I see that you went through this round of funding. You're going through this. You guys hired this many people in the last 12 12 months, like, so you guys are obviously trying to get something. I couldn't find anything on your press releases that told me what exactly your aspirational goals are for the next 5 years. What does that look like for you? And how do you fit in that? And how does this candidate fit into that? now you're talking a different game. You're just like, you can tap into those things and, like, be a better salesperson at the end of the day.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:32]:

So Right? I I'm listening to this. I feel like most of us recruiters were go go go go go

Will McGhee [00:38:38]:

go go go. Mhmm.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:39]:

But we're it sounds like we have to slow down a little to speed up.

Will McGhee [00:38:44]:

The what's the saying? Slow is fast. Right? It's it's a military saying. I don't know. I can't remember. I I read it somewhere. I think it was from extreme ownership or something like that. And I was like, slow is fast. If you take, like, Take the time to understand the situation, the problem, what's happening, get your ducks in a row, and then all of a sudden you're marketing, you're messaging, all that stuff will change, and it sucks at first. I'm not gonna even lie. Like, we just finished our cohort and it's it was 4 weeks for a reason. And the reason why it was the 1st 2 weeks are all about understanding your market. If you don't understand your market, you can't create great messaging. That's 3 week 3. And week 4 was all about implementing automation and AI. And it's like, how do we use it? Right? And it's like, If you don't do that baseline thing, which is get the full perspective of your target market And and it's literally in every business book. Like, it's business 101, which is, like, what why it's, like, so important to me and, like, it's so important for me to tell this to prudors is like, you're you don't suck. Your process does. And your process sucks because you didn't do the work up front to understand your market. And if you don't understand your market, you can't you can't market to them. Effectively, You in a hot market, you could probably, like, you could jump in and then, you know, send a 2 paged email and it'd still get a response. It's just not gonna get a very good response. You might have very good conversion, but you'll get 1. Right? And and that one might be all you need. So I don't know.

Benjamin Mena [00:40:22]:

No. I absolutely love that. It like I said, it's, you know, slowing down better emails, understanding, like, Being asking better questions. I think that's one of the biggest things. Like, as we're as us recruiters, we are known for asking questions, and I always believe asking better questions is always something I I feel like I can always learn how to do better.

Will McGhee [00:40:43]:

Yeah. I I've I'm one of my my old boss at cyber cutters He he instilled into me, like, you're Batman. You're a detective. Like, you need to just figure it out. and, like, always be curious. And so if you're not curious, you're you and you're just kinda going through the motions, that's when you fail. And I and I found that to be true. It's like, every time I go through the motions, if I'm just, like, doing stuff and I'm not curious about it, then I end up, like, having low billing years or billing quarters or whatever.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:15]:

So before we make a shift to the next part of the podcast, is there anything else that you'd wanna share about business development, marketing,

Will McGhee [00:41:22]:

Not right now. I mean, I think, like, if we wanted to dive deeper, there's, like, I have topics on topics on topics. that we could talk into, but that's I think that's a good good starting point if people wanted to start, like, learning anything. It's just, like, really just understanding your market, get really deep validation and, like, get to know exactly what you're gonna do before you go after, you know, role or a position or whatever it is, like, you know, you you wanna really be able to tap into what the pains and whatever aspirations the target market is. And that that's including your candidates too. So, like, if you're talking to your candidates, you can have great better you have can have better candidate marketing too if you do that. Right? So I think those are the big things.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:08]:

So it's a consistent theme that every single top biller that has been on the podcast, every single top biller that I know and have been friends with. It's something they they don't talk about, but it's there. And it's mindset. it's self belief, no, like, getting past, like, you know, your own self. But, you know, with you being a top biller for well over a decade, What's your thoughts on mindset in in the recruiting

Will McGhee [00:42:38]:

chair? Oh, yeah. Mindset. Big, I'm big on mindset. Like, if you don't have the right mindset going into this, like, like I said, that curious my curiosity mindset is a big thing for me. Right? So if I'm not curious about it, I'm probably not going to do well. I'm I'm not excited about it. I'm probably not gonna do well, so you gotta get amped up about it. and So I whatever industry you do wanna focus on, make sure that's something that you're interested in, and that you're you can delve in and and really find some meat there. But really, like, if you even go back further, mindset really is important, like, that belief system that you have about your ability and your ability to do things is really big, you know, as as a child, you go through trauma and you go through things in your life that affect kinda who you are today and you know, you have to deal with those things. And I think, you know, there's certain levels of trauma that are healthy, and they're actually good. And I think there was a study done can't remember exactly where it was, but, that that top producers usually have some sort childhood trauma that they're dealing with, and they're using that as kind of like an energy to push themselves. Now that can go you know, both ways. And but the the idea was, like, it's not like it's not crazy trauma. Like, I'm not saying, like, I mean, there are people who deal with crazy trauma that are also producers. I'm saying, like, that it's it doesn't have to be crazy trauma for you to go through it. and, like, to be a to to tap into it. It can just be, like, the trauma of, you know, losing to your brother all the time and having that, like, like, anger and, like, frustration and pain. It could be the trauma of, like, you not having the attention of your father or your mother. Right? And using that to basically be like, hey. Like, I'm going to, you know, do stuff that's going to impress them, or that I could say it's pro I'm proud of. So, like, it doesn't have to be, like, deep trauma. It can be, you know, fairly normalized trauma. and just having that belief that you can get past it. And I think one of the things that, Arnold just talked about, like, recently in his new document a documentary on on Netflix. It was like he was talking about the trauma he had as a child and how, like, He just knew he wasn't kinda meant to be there, and he used that as a propelling force. That competition between him and his brother was the thing that really propelled him to be this this athlete. Right? And, you know, and people not believing in him. Rappers talk about it all the time where there's, like, their teacher or their guidance counselor was like, oh, yeah. Like, you're never gonna be anything, and they end up using that. Yeah. Right? And just using that. And so, like, I'm, like, kind of a spiritual, like, like, hippie dippy kinda guy too. So like, there's, like, this conflict with this belief system of, like, using this trauma and, like, trying to find peace And so, like, I have this thing where, like, I have this dichotomy of me, like, where I have to find something that is is either within myself that I failed that or whatever. Like, that's the best way. It's like, oh, like, I'm gonna compete against myself. or find an enemy, right, and or, like, an adversary. A good adversary is, like, the best thing. Like, I it just makes me salivate to, like, have a good adversary. I wanna have a good adversary. So, having a good adversary is another part of that too. So like I said, it's just It's all about that competitiveness mindset where you're just, like, having to to win. You wanna win. If if you're like, oh, I'm just doing this. because I just, like, you know, wanna help people. Yeah. That's great. Find your win. Like, find find the why you need to win, and then and then you can help better. So -- I

Benjamin Mena [00:46:48]:

I think most people need to, you know, either they know it or that you have to go back and remember.

Will McGhee [00:46:54]:

Yes. Do some deep work, man. I I deep work's huge. I did a lot of deep work. in my twenties and thirties. Like, it was all about just understanding who I am and what I wanna do and what trauma I was dealing with. And is it, like, It is the is the pain that can I use that pain? Can I use the frustration? Can I use it in a positive direction? If you can use it, like, if there's It's powerful. And, obviously, like, the good part of that too is, like, I wanna use the good energy as well, but I don't know. Like, driving force is when you're about to lose her if you've lost. Like, if you're if you've ever been pushed, like, put on in a corner and had to defend yourself, like, there's there's nothing that that is I don't know another energy that, like, you could tap into of that feeling, like, I never wanna be there again. I know, like, when I was selling my car, I was like, I'm never gonna be broke again. It's never gonna happen. You know, and I was broke again a couple times in my life, but, like, you know, just bad money management. So I was like, oh, I'm not gonna be broke again again. biller money management. So I had to prove something myself. So it's like, you know, there's all that stuff.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:04]:

I mean, I think it could be, like, a whole different podcast episode about, like, pull yourself back to those memories after you get to a place of what I what I would say, comfortability.

Will McGhee [00:48:15]:

God. Get out of comfort, but get out of your comfort zone. Your comfort zone is your worst enemy in sales. Like, if you wanna just go live on a farm and, like, you know, live off the land. Comfort sounds fantastic. But if you wanna go and be a good recruiter or a salesperson, You need to, like, you need to put the my friend put it. There should always be attack on your ass, and I always love that because you should never be able to sit down. You should never be able to sit down and relax. Like, if as soon as you do that, you've you are toast.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:47]:

To better can't name this episode tackling your ass.

Will McGhee [00:48:50]:

attack on your ass.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:54]:

You know, you kinda mentioned early on in mindset and also early on on the podcast about you know, having a chip on your shoulder.

Will McGhee [00:49:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, has that has that

Benjamin Mena [00:49:04]:

been good or bad for you or a combination of both?

Will McGhee [00:49:06]:

Yeah. It's it's Good. and it's also bad. Yeah. It's a combination about that. I think if, like, the chip gets out of hand, like, if that's all you focus on, then, yeah, it's it's bad. And I I'm I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD really bad. So once I focus on something, it can get really bad. I I, like, I become a little obsessive about it. So I try yeah. Go ahead.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:31]:

When I say chip on your shoulder, are, like, are you talking about actual chip on your shoulder. And when I think of chip on the shoulder, I think of, like, egotistical.

Will McGhee [00:49:38]:

Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:39]:

Or are you talking about just the confidence of you understanding of what you can bring to the table. Bo, you've brought to the table.

Will McGhee [00:49:45]:

I I mean, both. Like, like, where, like, the chip on your shoulder of, like, people, like, under estimating your ability. I think that's one of my biggest chips is being like, oh, you don't think I could do that? Oh, you don't think this can win? Like, I'm like, And so, like, like, I don't think I'm smarter than anyone because I'm not. I think I'm a pretty pretty intelligent guy, but I'm not, like, oh, I'm, like, ta leagues ahead of people. I just think I have a different mind. I have a different experience. I have a different thing to bring to the table. And when I've when I started at, like, you know, certain firms, I want it. Like, I came in letting them know, like, I wanna experiment. I want a place where I can play with these ideas freely. And, yes, like, if they start to fail or if it doesn't get anywhere, we'll just. But you know, I wanna I wanna have that. And every single time the owner just wanted my biller, and they'd be like, yeah. We could do that. Yeah. We're gonna do that in, like, months. And then, like, 6 months come around, I'm like, alright. Let's that it's ticked off. Like, it's it's up. I didn't promise that, you know, and so it's, like, Oh my god. Okay. So that became and it it became one of those things because, like, they're they're just following whatever was working. Right? And whatever is they're doing is the same. And I just believe there's better ways to do it. an example of that, like, was productizing certain or solution solution marketing specific in specific fields that had high turnover, like, sales in the time of, like, mortgage industry was on fire in

Intro [00:51:31]:

2021, 2022,

Will McGhee [00:51:33]:

like, But those that space is, like, known for being very transactional. That space is also known for people that's, like, leaving really quick. you know, having terrible companies that just don't treat their people. Right? So it's really hard to identify certain things, and they're, like, literally anyone could open up a mortgage industry at the time or mortgage company at the time. So it's like, how do you validate? So I was like, why are like, there's all these people billing, you know,

Intro [00:52:00]:

$300,400,000

Will McGhee [00:52:02]:

in the quarter, and then none of it actualizes. And I was like, there's a problem there. Right? Because, like, if you're doing this and all your candidates fall off or the company doesn't wanna pay or you're constantly doing you know, backfills, then, like, there's a prob we create a better solution. I'm not saying that we don't go after that market. Just do a better solution. Do it do it in a better way. So when I left my little startup organization, I was like, chip on my shoulder. I'm gonna show you it works. And so all I did was I went after mortgage companies with a product or solution, and I was like, hey. We've got, you know, great candidates. and we could take out the pain of, like, dealing with this turnover. Let's go and do something better than other recruiting firms are gonna for you. We we have a flat fee plus a bonus and, you know, no guarantee. And they loved it. Loved it. One client We did for 3 month contract. it was, like, 85 or $75,000 we made from that one client and it was light work. I mean, Ben, I mean, when I say light work, I mean, I was spending maybe an hour a day on that client. an hour. Right? And it was just talking to candidates, hey. You know, passing through, and the candidates loved it. The clients loved it. No problem. Right? So that's like what I mean is, like, if you have something that that's, like, bugging you about the space, you wanna change it, change it. Use it. Use that paint. Use that that chip, that that anger that you know that's, like, that's there, like, use it, but don't get obsessive about it because then it's did it becomes a psychological issue?

Benjamin Mena [00:53:49]:

Also, real quick, know, I definitely pick out of there. You also once again found another FOMO market. He capitalized on it.

Will McGhee [00:53:55]:

Oh, a 1000%. Yeah. If I, again, I if I could find FOMO, like, right now, If I was if I was producing, I'd be like, I'd be all over the AI space. I'd be all over chat AI. I'd be like, but I would do it differently because, like, I'd probably create a solution around that, and I'd say, like, we've got, you know, we've got I'd probably create an AI agency is what I'd probably do, which is I think we're gonna end up leaning towards on recruiting a dynamite is, like, creating some sort of AI agency for recruiters.

Benjamin Mena [00:54:22]:

Alright. So and one more thing, I, like, on the mindset focus before we move on. I know this is a struggle that, you know, I personally have dealt with. I know it's a struggle that a lot of other recruiters have dealt with. but it's limiting biller.

Will McGhee [00:54:37]:

Mhmm.

Benjamin Mena [00:54:38]:

Keeping you from being the best recruiter you could possibly be. Based on the people that you've talked with, the things that you've dealt with, what's your advice on dealing with limiting beliefs in the recruiting sector?

Will McGhee [00:54:51]:

You are not who you think you are, but you are who you think you are. So what I mean by that is You are not giving yourself well, a lot of people aren't giving themselves enough credit for whatever they their abilities are and their ability to get through at, adversity and push through, you know, the comfort of whatever they're they're comfortable in. But at the same time, if you can't get past the thought, of it and you just continue to think that you are less than, then, you're never gonna get past it. Right? So you have to find ways to find success, or find, your wu as my my, my old manager had put it, because it it's not helping you. You know? I was talking to one of my clients and they were telling me about how they wanted to be more like this other person, this other biller. and that they just didn't feel like they had the ability to do it, and they didn't have They had some trauma to work through. And I was like, you'd and that this purse oh, that was what it was, is this person that they had looked at this person didn't have those things. And I had to stop them, and I had to say, like, you know, at the end of the day, you're missing kind of a key point is that they do have those things. They just have worked through them. They don't let those things stop them from those traumas. Those those beliefs stop them from continuing. and they have this faith. And I think faith is such a big thing for me. Like, I'm not I'm not a I'm not a super religious person. I'm more I guess I would say I'm more agnostic than anything. and but I I do have I do have faith. I have faith in that, like, things will work out and will always work out in my best favor. And one of the things like I played around with is that, like, If you watch, like, Marvel right now and low key and all that stuff, it's like, oh, there's multi dimensions and everything like that, and we're proving more and more that we live in a multidimensional world. where there's a lot of different things that are happening. and, there was a study done where, they didn't observe an electron and where it would land. As soon as they observed it, it had a different course. Right? So, like, you're literally the just observing something and thinking about something. actually changes matter, right, which is crazy and they're crazy to think about. And so if you have this belief system in your head that's negative and Like like looking down, you're creating that reality. You literally are creating that reality. But instead, like, the way I kinda push through it is I think You know what? I live in a world. I live in the universe where everything is my best possible option. Everything that I do is the best core or everything that happens to me is because it's leading me to the best possible outcome. period. And, like, I just think I, like, even when, like, shit hits the fan, things aren't going well, the economy's going to hell, like, I I rack up a bunch of debt or, like, whatever it might be. Right? Whatever there's cap whatever's happening that I hate or I'm I'm hurting from, I just think, you know what? That needed to happen in order for me to have my best outcome. And so it's not getting it's not about, like, these things don't affect me. They totally do. It's just you're just getting past it with a a higher version of yourself and higher version of thought. So limiting belief is that's how I get past my limiting beliefs is just being like, it's gonna work out. It's all gonna work out. I don't really care. It it doesn't matter that this happened.

Benjamin Mena [00:58:55]:

Definitely great advice. Before we jump over to the quick fire section, is there anything else you'd love to share on any of the topics that we've been covering?

Will McGhee [00:59:03]:

Yeah. And so much, but, no, I I think that's good enough. I got I I feel like I barely touched the surface some of the times. Like, I and try I try in these podcasts to, like, get give you as much detail as I possibly can, but I don't wanna, like, confuse the listener too much.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:19]:

Awesome. So for the quick fire part of this podcast, if you're a recruiter that's just starting off in

Intro [00:59:26]:

2023,

Benjamin Mena [00:59:28]:

What advice would you give them?

Will McGhee [00:59:31]:

What advice would I give a recruiter in 2023? Fine.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:35]:

That's just starting out brand new.

Will McGhee [00:59:37]:

brand new. Just got out of college. or just got out of whatever other industry. I would say, Find find companies and men find companies or mentors and or mentors that you can follow and build your business around, and that are gonna teach you more than just butts in seats and placements. So, I was lucky enough to have a really great boss at cybercoders and once I learned from him as much as I could, I found other I I just constantly sought out mentorship from other top biller and other people within the company, and then I ended up finding my mentor who's who today is still my mentor, because she's just someone that I admire so much. We have the same ethos. Like, she just we just we're super aligned on so many levels, and she does like 2,000,000 a year like, consistently. Like, she's done it for the last, like, 12 years. Right? So she's somebody that I really, really, like, just tap into as much as I possibly can. and we've become really great friends because of it, and I've learned so much from her. And then I surround myself with other people like her in different industries. So don't just sit to stick to, like, the recruiting space, find mentors and marketing, find mentors and sales, find mentors in business in general because, like, you learn a lot from from those people, and you can, like, try and adapt to that. adapt that mentorship to your business models.

Benjamin Mena [01:01:26]:

I love that. And for recruiters that have been the game for a while, whether it's 5 to 25 years, What advice would you give them to be successful?

Will McGhee [01:01:35]:

Be adaptable. I think a lot of recruiters that are in the space right now that have been here very much focused on what worked and don't really, like, look at where the market's changing and things that are happening in the space. For example, a lot of tech recruiters I know that have been in tech for years are struggling, and they just refuse to pivot out and pivot to something that's different. And, and I think that's gonna be, like, their their undoing. because I, like, I just don't see tech in the way it was continuing that path or, like, like, software engineering as a specific example. Like, software engineering is changing. It's not going away, but it's changing from, like, this web development application platform development world to more AI function, and, like, deep learning. Google just came out with, like, a quantum computer. Like, dude, like, this stuff is going in the next 5 years, we're, like, you're you're not gonna even have applications anymore. I'm like, you're just gonna have, like, like, things on your finger, like, and touches in your eye and, like, your contact lenses are gonna tell you where to go. Like, You're gonna be, like, in, like, in a dystopian black blue black mirror world, like, you know, it could go wrong, but tech is just not the same anymore. And so the value and, like, the same the same type of software engineers that you're trying to pitch, like, that's that's now a commodity. at this point. Not, like, good software engineers. Lead engineers are all going always gonna have a need, but, like, the regular -- -- something

Benjamin Mena [01:03:21]:

get get written by choppy PT?

Will McGhee [01:03:23]:

Pretty much. I mean, like, if you look at LOM, like, in what code code GPT is doing, like, it it's the writings on the wall. Like, were we were coming to parity with AI pretty soon. And You need to adapt. You need to figure that out.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:43]:

Well, since we're on the topic of AI, what's your thought on the impact of AI on the future of recruiting.

Will McGhee [01:03:49]:

You had another guess that that said it perfectly. Like, I it's scary, but it's also exciting. and I choose the exciting path. I'd rather exciting path than the scary path. So I'm excited about it, right, because it's something that's, like, that I'm finding as being such a valuable assistant in everything I do And that's the way I look at it. It's just like it's an assistant, and it allows me to be a superhuman versus, and a team of 1. I really do think you were gonna start seeing, you know, the 1, like, one person $30,000,000 recruiter. recruiting organization. I I think you're gonna see that fairly soon. I think there's a there's a chance that there's gonna be The the first one one person $1,000,000,000 company. Right? And that's it's a very, very, very likely thing to happen in just a matter of, like, how you position it. So I love it. I think it's gonna be exciting.

Benjamin Mena [01:04:52]:

Awesome. Has there been a book that has had a huge impact on your career?

Will McGhee [01:04:59]:

Yeah. too, specifically. relentless by Tim Grover. it really tapped into, like, the mentality that I have. A lot of times, I thought I was weird for having this, like, hyper competitive, obsessive mentality, and it really validated from, like, a an athlete's perspective. I don't know if you know who Tim are you familiar with Tim Grover?

Benjamin Mena [01:05:24]:

that's the book that was written on Kobe Bryant. Right?

Will McGhee [01:05:27]:

Kobe and Michael Jordan Tim Grover was Michael Jordan to Kobe Bryant's personal trainer. and he writes about how, like, these two people were, or they're the top of their game. And they play with a chip on their shoulder. They play with, like, the trauma that they had. They play with the fact that, like, they expect perfection. And, like, they and, like, they're in in light words, they're they're assholes, right, at at to most people when they're playing against them, they hate them. because they're like, this guy's just talking best. And, you know, he's, like, overly cocky, and they they just have this, like, crazy belief about what they can do, and they just believe that they're better than everyone else in that position. Right? but when you get them off the court, guess what? They're the nicest, kindest, fun people to be around, and that's a part of It's just playing the game. Like, playing the game in this relentless, like, like, winner take all type of mentality because, like, I wanna be the best. And and you know that that perfection does not exist. You know that you're competing against yourself all the time. Like, you're beating yourself. Like, I need to beat that next. I need to beat that record for myself. It's not a it's actually less about the other opponent or anybody else, but if you can find an adversary, it's a really big motivator. And, like, like, Michael Jordan said in his last dance, like, yeah, I took it personally. You know? And it's like, once you take something personally, it's like, And it it could be the dumbest thing. Like, it could just be like, oh, they, like, looked at me wrong, and I took it personally. And, like, if you could do that and, like, find your little thing, You know, it'll it'll be okay. but, again, you gotta let that go right away. It can't it can't stick and linger for too long. Like, you can't let it ruin your relationships with people and all that stuff. So I I loved relentless. And then the other one is Chris Voss has never split the difference. those two books, man, like, never split the difference. Chris Voss has a really great master class on it too. So if you Do the Chris Foss book, watch them, go do the master class as well. And it's just the art of negotiation, the wordsmithing, -- and understanding, like, again, you're getting a perspective of people and you you're helping guide people to a solution versus, you know, just you know, putting whatever you think is right. it's such a it's such a powerful technique. so those two have helped me biller a ton in my in my in my business.

Benjamin Mena [01:08:08]:

Well, and that that kinda goes into my next question. Like, is there been something that has really helped you or something that you could point to that has really helped and contributed to your personal success?

Will McGhee [01:08:21]:

Yeah. My past experiences definitely are a big part of that. Like, again, talking into I don't wanna go into, like, my traumas and my problems, but, like, yeah, like, those those pains, those frustrations have been a big driver for me and always trying to constantly prove that to myself that, like, I've got what it takes to do what it what I need to do. And, you know, again, improving upon what I know what I can do. my wife has been a big part of that. when she and I were dating, like, you know, I really wanted to show her that, you know, it wasn't just some normal guy, and I wanted to really be somewhere with her. And she was a part of that. And now my child you know, my daughter is everything to me. So those two people in my life mean literally more than anything. So if like, anybody wants to cut, like, like, come after that. Like, I've gotta beat that. Like, if they're they're trying to steal my cake, So I can't feed my kid, and I can't feed my my wife, you know, like, I I have a problem with that. I'm a take it personally. So Yeah. So it's a lot of that stuff. So it's like, I just, like, I tap into whatever competition I can create. It sounds it sounds psychotic. I'd say it all. But but it it's the truth. Like, I'm being, like, dead ass on everything. It's like, it is I those

Intro [01:09:56]:

2

Will McGhee [01:09:57]:

right there, like, I will do anything to make sure that they're I'll I'll torch the world. Right? Like, it's just I will I will scorch earth just to ensure that they're good. But I'll do it in the most, morally correct way possible.

Benjamin Mena [01:10:14]:

Love that. Well, that and that's gonna go into my next question that I have. You know, you you've had a lot of experiences, ups and downs with your career. you know, many years being a big biller. I if you could sit down, have a cup of coffee with yourself when you just started your career. What advice would you would you tell yourself?

Will McGhee [01:10:39]:

Stop chasing the money, and focus on, the process. So have fun with it. And That would be, like, the big thing. It's just like, don't chase the money. Have fun with the process. Like, play. Play more. Play literally play more. because I've I've I've now I just I'm in such a mode of play. And I think if you if you don't take it seriously and you're not like, oh, I'm just, like, so focused on billing. Like, it's just it becomes playful. And when you're playing, it's, like, it's enjoyable. Like, every one of these podcasts I get on, every single one of my cohorts that I do, any of my one on ones now, like, It's not a pain. It's not frustrating. It's not something I'm, like, you know, dreading to do. I'm, like, amped about it. I'm energized. I'm excited because it's all play. And so just stop worrying about the money. The money will come.

Benjamin Mena [01:11:39]:

Well, well, before I let you go, is there anything else that you would love to share with the listeners?

Will McGhee [01:11:44]:

Oh, man. So much. Yeah. I think just, like, that last topic, I think, is a big one. I I don't really talk about it as much as I should and just, like, having fun with what you're doing. If you're learning something new, you're gonna be bad at it. It's gonna suck. and if you're trying to, like, learn how to do marketing and learn how to do sales in a in in outside of the perspective of just being a recruiter, you gotta have fun with it, and you actually will help it'll help your brain and your career and your follow through even if you're having fun with it. That's why I like the adversary part of it. it makes it competitive, and it's kind of like using that energy to, like, play So, yeah, I just have fun. I play. play as much as you can. Find your play.

Benjamin Mena [01:12:36]:

Oh, awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the legal recruiter podcast, for the listeners. this has been a powerful episode. So excited that you got to hear this. And, you know, if you're listening to this, I really hope you crush it, and I'll just crush it together, guys.

Will McGhee [01:12:52]:

Definitely. Thanks, Ben.

Intro [01:12:54]:

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