Blueprint to Crushing It in Recruitment: Harnessing Tech, Mindset, and Community with The Syndicate

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
Coming up on this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast, Take Action.

David Stephen Patterson [00:00:04]:
It's really, really easy to sit and plan and overanalyze and over prepare. At the end of the day, half assed plan that is acted on is much better than a perfect plan that's never acted on.

Daniel Miller [00:00:15]:
I think of everyone as a possible connection, and I had that mentality, and we were able to build millions through that mentality. Microsoft makes 80% of their revenue through partnerships. Everyone in the software game does it all through partnerships. Welcome to the Elite Recruiter podcast with your host, Benjamin Mesh, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:45]:
Being a solo recruiter is hard. You're out there by yourself. You're out there day after day looking to win. But here's the thing, you don't have to be by yourself when you're a solo recruiter. I'm excited to have three people on the podcast, and this is the first time I'm doing a four person episode. So bear with me, guys. But I'm excited because the group that I have on today, they are some of the best community builders when it comes to the recruiting community. These guests have helped me on my journey as a solo recruiter, and I know they've helped many, many other people.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:17]:
So I'm excited to have them today to talk about how you can win as a solo recruiter, how you can grow as a solo recruiter, and also like, a lot of the tools that are out there. So the group that I have today, they're called the Syndicate. I have Neil, which you've heard on a recent podcast, David Stefan Patterson, which he has been a returning guest, and then brand new guest, Daniel Miller. So I just want to say welcome to the podcast, guys.

David Stephen Patterson [00:01:41]:
Hey, glad to be here, you guys.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:44]:
So we know Neil's background. We definitely know DSP's background. So make sure to go back to the episodes that they shared, how they ended up in the recruiting space. So we'll make this quick. Daniel, how did you end up in this wonderful world? Recruiting.

Daniel Miller [00:01:58]:
Sure. So thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here today, and my start in recruiting was very different than a typical start. I got my start in high school, and I was an intern, and I became everyone's researcher at an MRI agency. So that was my start. And I stayed there for six plus years and built a career. So that's. It was atypical.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:17]:
You didn't even get the hey, I saw out of college and started recruiting.

Neil Lebovits [00:02:20]:
Right. Normally an accident. It's an accident in so many cases.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:26]:
Like if you're in high school, starting at a recruiting agency you like, you almost chose that path. That's your destiny.

Neil Lebovits [00:02:32]:
It really was.

Daniel Miller [00:02:33]:
I even had to take a cab to work every day because I didn't even have my driver's license. So half my paycheck went to the cabs every week. So, yeah, it was crazy back then, but I learned it all and I loved it ever since.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:44]:
That is awesome. Well, definitely. It's exciting to have you guys audit. First of all, I know David Steffen Patterson, DSP, has one of the biggest recruiting groups on Facebook, probably one of the biggest emailing lists, too, when it comes to what's happening out there. But here's the thing. You guys are starting something new. What the hell is the syndicate?

David Stephen Patterson [00:03:01]:
Well, let's start here. So, first off, you guys may have noticed I'm wearing my championship belt. This is for championship recruiters. A little bit of a joke here, but the great thing about being a recruiter is you buy stupid crap. And I spent $300 on this about 15 years ago. And, you know, that's the great thing about this business. This business is fantastic because you get to have a great lifestyle. You have so much freedom.

David Stephen Patterson [00:03:25]:
But the problem is, and for many recruiters, I'm sure, have experienced this, especially if you're independent, if you're not part of a bigger organization, part of a franchise, or a network is, you're on an island. I remember when I first started in the business, my first search firm, I didn't even know how to incorporate. I actually started my first search firm, unincorporated, because I just was half assing it and I half assing it, but I was. I didn't know what I was doing.

Daniel Miller [00:03:48]:
It.

David Stephen Patterson [00:03:48]:
I was figuring out as I go, because I was on an island. And to have a community of like minded recruiters that you can bounce ideas off of, they can help you with your mindset that maybe become great split partners. And as we've come to learn, great friends. Ben, your friend Dan, your friend Neil. Great friend. And that's what we want to create with this community is first and foremost a community of, like, many recruiters that can come together. And of course, there's lots of other benefits as well. Neil, I can maybe have you talk a bit about that.

David Stephen Patterson [00:04:16]:
I don't want to hog the spotlight here, but first and foremost, it's a community. Number one is a community.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:21]:
Talk about these benefits. Like, I know one of the things, when I first started out, I think I was like begging DSP. I was like, what's an agreement look like?

Neil Lebovits [00:04:30]:
Yeah, well, that's the thing, Ben. What we wanted to create was not just a community where you can speak your mind to be off of Facebook. And some people don't like being on Facebook, which is where our biggest community is. But we wanted to have a one stop resource center where you can go and get everything that people have been asking for and talking about all over the Internet. So we have hundreds of forms and agreements and templates. You know, in fact, one of my partners at boss was asking for an employee and book and everyone's going nuts. Well, Google it. Go to Sherm.

Neil Lebovits [00:05:03]:
I'm like, go to the syndicate. And if you go in there and you type in a search under handbook, you'll get four different types of employee handbooks, hundreds of forms, a hundred ebooks, great ebooks. Until we get sued to take them down. Live it up. They can grow rich, you know, all these amazingly well known books, as well as proprietary books that we've curated from across the recruiting industry. Retain, search, how to grow your desk. So it's one stop shopping for all of this. And a lot more.

Neil Lebovits [00:05:34]:
A lot more.

David Stephen Patterson [00:05:35]:
And also fun. I'm a big fan that if you're trying to create a community, and by the way, I'm not talking about just the recruited community, but as a recruiter, if you're getting clients and candidates, you have community. You've got a client community and a candidate community. Right. And you need to share value, build authority, share content. Yeah. It's not just about making placements. Right.

David Stephen Patterson [00:05:54]:
You have to, you have to plant seeds that will eventually grow. Right. That you can then harvest. But the problem is recruiters can be very dry, right. And they put out content. Tops have hiring mistakes and yada, yada. And there's a million of those things out there and no one notices it. So a big part of this, you have to be entertaining.

David Stephen Patterson [00:06:10]:
You have to have fun. If you're entertaining people stick around for the education, for the value, and then they start to trust you and then they want to do business with you. That's a big part of it. And so the syndicate, one thing that I'm very proud of is that we try to make it like Narnia, right? You step through the wardrobe and you don't know what you're going to see and you step through and in. This is a magical land full of free agreements, forms, training, community. There's public forums, we have a place called the tavern where you can go have a little happy hour with your friends. We have meme mountain where we share recruiting memes just so we can have some fun. So it's not dry, it's not boring.

David Stephen Patterson [00:06:50]:
We want to make it a fun environment. It's also helpful as an example, just a couple days ago, I don't want to see who the person is, but I'm reading this, we had somebody post in the group. Help, please. I'm about to make a place with my normal 30 day terms. My client insists on a 90 day guarantee and make the payment on day 90. What do I do? We already have people responding, giving him some valid advice. Now he can go back and negotiate that with his client. I wish I had that when I was younger, trying to figure this stuff out.

David Stephen Patterson [00:07:18]:
Plus a place where I can just go and have some fun and hang out, have a nice hang with my friends. So I think it's a big part. It's not just the value, it's not just the community, not just the training, there's a lot of training in there, but it's also a fun place to go. It's almost like a safe haven, if you will. Right.

Neil Lebovits [00:07:35]:
And you know what, Ben, the only thing I just want to add, and I'm going to be quiet, is some people said, the syndicate, that's a scary name. And they think of the mob. What the syndicate really is in business school is a collaboration among people that share a very similar audience, that have very different goals. So you get to create a whole that's greater than the sum of the parts and the reason it's there for free. And people are like, well, what's the catch? Listen, it's an ongoing branding for the three of us. We each have different audiences. I mean, same audience but different purposes. David's the trainer.

Neil Lebovits [00:08:09]:
He wants to reach out to people who want training. They'll buy his boot camps and all the other stuff. If nothing, they're just going to know who he is. As a trainer, as a thought leader, I've got boss back office staffing solutions. As the employer of record, I'm the back office side to it, if people want it. And Daniel is recruiter PM, which is the front office side. And Daniel and I API together and we create with David a full ecosystem, if you will, for everything that you need in staffing and recruiting.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:38]:
And real quick, I had Daniel at the AI summit, but for the listeners, real quick, what is recruiter PM?

Daniel Miller [00:08:43]:
Recruiter PM is essentially an all in one platform, ATS, CRM and 30 other apps all built into one platform. So you don't need an app marketplace anymore to do your job as a manager of running your agency or recruiter. No matter your role in an agency, this software has everything built into one place to make it easier, not have to essentially question, what app do I need next? It's one ecosystem.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:09]:
Awesome. Well, I'm excited that you guys all came together, but one of the biggest things I'm excited about chatting with you guys about, you guys talk to hundreds and thousands of recruiters on a yearly basis. I want to know how the fuck are they winning? So we're going to do a deep dive into what's working right now in this weird market because I know DSP talked about it for a long time. During the heydays, the golden era of recruiting was going to come to an end. And for many industries, it did come to an end. So what the hell is working right now for recruiters winning?

David Stephen Patterson [00:09:41]:
Okay, I'll take this one. This is my area being aggressive. So I think what's old is new is news old. So what I mean by that is you basically have available to you in terms of channels of communication. You have LinkedIn, email, good old cold calls, right? Again. What's old is new again, if people are making cold calls and start making cold calls, direct mail. We also have things like video, texting. And so in my opinion, you need to get out and use as many channels as soon as possible.

David Stephen Patterson [00:10:07]:
So they say that it takes ten to twelve touches to get in front of a prospect. Who knows what the number is. This is kind of a good rubric or rule of thumb, but it doesn't mean cold call one, cold call two, cold call three. Or does it mean email one email, it means they see a post on LinkedIn over here, they get an email from me over here, voicemail from you over here. They see at a conference over here, email over here, LinkedIn over here. And over time they build up a picture of who you are. This is a very low trust environment. And so if everybody is out there saying, hey, we find the best candidates, we find the best people, we have the most experience, we're the specialists, we're this, we are all saying the same thing.

David Stephen Patterson [00:10:39]:
Literally every single recruiter finds the best candidates. We all say it. It's completely low trust. So it's just all about relationships. But how do you build the relationships if everybody's reaching out to everybody else saying the same things? So it's consistency. Using multiple channels to get in front of people, being very consistent and finding ways to demonstrate that you actually do find better people. So, if you don't mind, we're going to dive a little bit further into that, if you don't mind here. But I think this is pretty valuable.

David Stephen Patterson [00:11:05]:
So if you're reaching out again, you're doing multiple channels, LinkedIn, email, phone, right now. That's great. Then you think about, okay, what message am I delivering that demonstrates that I find the best people? Because, again, everybody says the same shit all the time. I find the best people. So what can you do to demonstrate that? Here are a few little tidbits. Use some differentiating stats. Now, granted, people can make these up, but look, at the end of the day, it's better than nothing. 80% of all of our patients are retained after two years.

David Stephen Patterson [00:11:34]:
As an example. Right. Clients like that. We don't waste your time with frailt's candidates. 80% of all of our candidates we submit or interviewed like, we don't waste your time. We're on target. As an example.

Neil Lebovits [00:11:43]:
David, you know, this reminds you just really fast. Sorry to interrupt, but you know that 93.856% of trainers make up statistics, improve their point.

David Stephen Patterson [00:11:53]:
That's very true. Like I said, no doubt. But it's better than that. And it does help. It does help. So that's just it. So things like that. You also look at guarantees.

David Stephen Patterson [00:12:03]:
What? One year replacement guarantee for engaged clients. If you're willing to make a money down deposit, could be one. I have a couple of classes. Do a two year guarantee. Now, granted, some people will spit up their coffee when they hear that, but at the end of the day, Apple has Applecare for a reason. I spend $200 or however much I spend every time I buy a new iPhone for Apple care, because I want the peace of mind. I don't want to drop my phone on a payment somewhere. And the Apple genius says, well, sir, it's not our responsibility.

David Stephen Patterson [00:12:30]:
Route insurance company. No, I want a new phone. Give me the new phone. I want to go about my business. So offer them peace of mind. That could be one. Another one is testimonials. Get LinkedIn recommendations from your clients and candidates.

David Stephen Patterson [00:12:43]:
Right? And then take those and put that maybe in your messaging, maybe you're in your first initial pitch. Have a p's. P's are the most read parts of any email, or the second or third most read part p's. If you're not sure if we get the job done for you, check out what that client has to say about at work and put a testimonial right there in the message. Social proof, that's another one. Case studies for your clients. That's another one. And then I think one of the ultimate ways to show value, and I'll kind of leave it at this, is NPC's for those who don't know, most placeable candidates.

David Stephen Patterson [00:13:12]:
Now, granted, if I'm reaching out to a prospect every month, ding, ding, ding, ding. And every month they get an email from me or a LinkedIn message or a voicemail or something, and I'm slowly building up trust over time, right? But let's say I have a vp level candidate who is so hot and just money and a player, yada, yada, yada, and I present that person, right? Hey, we're representing a bullet point. Bullet point. Bullet points. That demonstrates much more than anything else the level of cannon I have access to. So I think I'm going to kind of wrap it all up, is you.

Neil Lebovits [00:13:49]:
Have to insert Oscar playing music now when people do their 20 minutes speech.

David Stephen Patterson [00:13:54]:
Exactly that music fed. But this is all this stuff is viable. So at the end of the day, you got to prove that you're different through consistency and also finding differentiators stats. Social proof guarantees NPC's. That's how you do it.

Benjamin Mena [00:14:09]:
So we just talked about what's working, how you can actually be different. You guys have different data points from your guys's different parts of the recruiting world. And I want to hear this from each of you guys. What is stopping recruiters from winning in this market right now? We'll just start with you, Daniel.

Daniel Miller [00:14:25]:
I think it's twofold and I think people are going to give me a lot of backlash on the first thing I'm going to mention. But I just want to mention it because it's so important. I think a lot of us were trained that we need a niche down, and we're so niche that we're so focused that we forget about all the jobs inside of our same clients and we could be preventing a lot of revenue coming in. I talked to a lot of recruiters using the software and they start saying yes to some of their clients in their other departments and they start seeing more revenue coming in. It's an instant revenue generator the minute they take their niche and start saying yes to more roles within their niche. So I see that being an opportunity where a lot of recruiters are opening up their niches a little bit more than they used to, at least the ones I'm working with. And then I would say too is you make so much on hire, 15, 20, 30,000. Don't be cheap on resources.

Daniel Miller [00:15:09]:
You need certain resources that you need, indeed. Resume search. No one talks about it. You need it. LinkedIn recruiter, it works. I can go on and on, but certain resources you do need to be successful in certain industries. And the minute the boss or the manager or whatever takes it away, you'll need like a seek out hire. You'll need some type of thing to replace those major resources.

Daniel Miller [00:15:28]:
Because whether we like it or not, LinkedIn and indeed has taken over the whole market of employment, and we have to kind of, you know, use those resources as best as possible. So these are two things I keep seeing over and over again, and I think it's really on indeed and LinkedIn to help us and the world of technology, NHR, integrate better. So recruiters that are messaging on indeed and another recruiter's message in the ATS, everyone's coordinating better, too. But again, their successes, when I look at the stats and where their revenue is coming from inside of our back end, it's indeed a LinkedIn recruiter time and time again. So I know, you know, we need to start investing in the resources sometimes that maybe we don't want to invest in. Those are two things I keep saying.

David Stephen Patterson [00:16:08]:
I want to add to that as well. I think that's a big part of it. I think the big part of it is mindset in different ways. Some people have the mindset where, for example, it's, they're not aggressive enough, they don't have the confidence that could be one. They don't have the confidence to cold call, or they don't have the confidence, or they're too good to cold call, or, I don't need a script. I know, I know how to do this. And they kind of fall into their old habits, or they get so much referral business for such a long time, they think, well, I just work by referrals. Okay, so your clients do your selling for you, and then when that stops, they're kind of stuck and they're afraid to actually break out of this box they put themselves in.

David Stephen Patterson [00:16:43]:
So there's a lot of mindset issues, too. I think, whether it's keeping them in a box or making them kind of feel lazy or whatever it is, I think that imagine your first day in the business when you're handed a phone and you're like, you're told just to go talk to people, talk, talk, talk. What happened? You got clients, you got candidates, you made deals happen. People get stuck in their head and they forget that simple principle is find ways to communicate and just be in the market, be aggressive, always ask for business. I think that mindset is a big, big issue that's keeping people from being successful in this market.

Neil Lebovits [00:17:16]:
People don't maximize their inventory, and you don't need to in an unbelievable market when everything's coming, although you should. So what do you do with these 95.8% making up that number of people that you're not placing? So, for example, are you doing coaching? A lot of people get into doing coaching, doing some real advanced resume help. Are you sourcing every single person for job leads? Are you doing that like you used to have to do? Are you getting the names of people they have? Are you really going in a level to the side lateral on LinkedIn and finding great new prospective candidates? Are you taking advantage of them? And this is self serving, but not really. Are you looking to place unemployed people as temporary workers? So many of them could be used as temp, and so many people that I see don't touch it, and they're afraid of it. And we have partners that make five, $600,000 for real in extra income by having a great contracting book of business with it. So you need to really maximize your audience, podcasts to your candidates.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:28]:
We focus on mindset, we focus on maximizing things, and we focus on being too niche. But I think that's what all circles down to somebody's identity. We've spent years building out an identity within the recruiting space, whether we're an internal recruiter, whether we're an agency recruiter, whether we're niche down on our own. And just the way the world's changing. How do you change your fundamental identity to help prepare yourself to go win in the recruiting world?

David Stephen Patterson [00:18:57]:
You know, that's a tough one. I think for a lot of people, it's kind of like going to a. You have to hit rock bottom, I think you have to. And not. Not for all people, right. But for a lot of people, they don't change until they have a year where they have the worst slump of their career or all the legacy clients go away. And they have to have that come to Jesus moment with themselves or their wife or their husband or their business partner or whatever it is. I think people need, like, something drastic or something negative to happen to them in order for them to get up and make a change.

David Stephen Patterson [00:19:23]:
I mean, there's some people who never get in shape until the doctor tells them that they have heart issues or that they may not live to see their grandson's birthday, whatever it is, and then they finally make that change. So I think for a lot of folks, they need something to smack in the face to actually make a change. But I think for others that are maybe a little bit lucky, not luckier, but have the advantage of being able to recognize things before things come to a head. Right. But I think a lot of it also comes back to community. If you're in a community that's supportive, to bring it back to the syndicate, if you're in a community that's supportive, or let's say in a community where you see other people hitting a brick wall and it serves as a warning, so to speak, but before you hit that brick wall or hit that rock bottom, they can help, too. So I think community is a big part of it, but I think a lot of people just really need to hit a brick wall before they make a change. Unfortunately, it's just how we're wired.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:13]:
Another question I wanted to ask you guys, just because I'm seeing this a lot in the marketplace. You know, there's a lot of internal recruiters that have been let go and laid off, like they're struggling to actually go find another job. How do they transition into their own agency?

Neil Lebovits [00:20:28]:
I'll say I see so many of them on the groups that go out and want to know how to open their own agency, or go right out and open their own agency. Thinking the leap is that simple because it has a similar root word, recruiting. It's totally different. Everyone out there that does it knows how different it is in terms of the sales aspect of it, and really what you need to do and how everything rides on one deal or one prep, and all these elements haven't been trained on. So for the love of God, try to get a position. It's not necessarily easy for that reason, but get a position where you can be trained, where you can learn by osmosis from people and figure out how to do it the right way. If nothing, the failure rate is super high.

David Stephen Patterson [00:21:13]:
Yeah, I agree with that. Because really, if you go from internal to external and searching agency, let's say, splash cold water on the face, and they realize that they have to sell and they have to go out and compete against a ton of other recruiters, there's so much white noise out there. And get a company to agree to work with you. And I know some folks, when they start, they already have contacts, so it's a little bit easier to have maybe some existing business they can tap into. But even with those folks that does go away. You have to learn how to just like dating, right? It's just dating. You've been married for 20 years, and then you find yourself on the dating scene. Well, you can go use Tinder, you can use match and all that kind of stuff.

David Stephen Patterson [00:21:49]:
And in that you can have some success there. But ultimately you have to have the ability to go and just walk up to somebody that you're interested in, potentially that's attractive to you and find a way to broach the conversation. Be interesting, be funny, not be weird, which is a big one. Don't be weird, don't be weird, right. And then baby step things and see if there's some mutual interests. And if not, then move on and keep doing that and build basically a social circle. I know people who have been divorced men who've been divorced after 20 some years, and they had to go build a social circle from scratch and they could do. It takes a lot of work, but you have to be willing to go out there and get the bruises, hear the nos, the rejections, the awkwardness, the late nights.

David Stephen Patterson [00:22:29]:
And eventually you build the best skill set of being social, being funny, being well known. And then, so the same way you build a social circle, right. In so much different ways. The same way you go out and build a network of people who want to work with you, whether clients and candidates. But again, it's clients. That's the main thing. They pay the bills, not the candidates. Right.

David Stephen Patterson [00:22:48]:
It's easy to get candidates. It really is. And fight me. If you disagree with me, I'll fight all day long. It's all about the clients. All but the clients. If you get clients, candidates will come, right. So getting the skills to go find clients.

David Stephen Patterson [00:23:02]:
So ultimately, how do you do it? Join one of my boot camps and I'll show you how.

Benjamin Mena [00:23:08]:
I mean, that's how I started.

David Stephen Patterson [00:23:10]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:23:12]:
Well, I want to talk also about changing industries. Like, I know during the heydays that we had a few years ago, everything was rocking and rolling or at least a lot of spaces. But now, like, there are industries that recruiting is hard in, and it looks like with the incoming of artificial intelligence, it's going to potentially get in harder with AI replacing not only, you know, some recruiters, but also, like, the positions recruiters are working on. And this also kind of ties back into identity. When you are in a niche that's part of who you are, how do you start looking at pivoting to a new industry or a new niche as a recruiter?

David Stephen Patterson [00:23:46]:
Talk to people in the industry. I've switched industries a couple of times. When I first got into search, I started off in staff. I work for a day labor company initially in 97, then Kelley Services. I stay at the call center for a while, but I learned search the MRI. And my first day they told me, you're going to recruit property and casualty commercial underwriters. And I said, what's an underwriter? They said, call all these resumes and you'll figure it out. Now, granted, you still want to research the industry, but the best way to find out is start talking to as many candidates as you can because they'll take your call and learn.

David Stephen Patterson [00:24:16]:
Find out what they're doing, find out what companies are hiring, what trends are sitting in the marketplace, learn the buzzwords, lingo, et cetera. Like, that's one of the best ways to learn. Take a week or two weeks and talk to candidates, maybe some leaders that are on the market as well, and you'll get a really good idea of what the market really is about. Then doing a month of just research online and not talking to a single person. Plus you'll probably find a good NPC. Find a good NPC and then take the person out to market. So I think for anybody who wants to work in a new industry, and by the way, I've done that a couple times. So I switched from insurance then to SAP and same thing.

David Stephen Patterson [00:24:50]:
I didn't know a thing about SAP. Right. I thought SAP was the spanish language. Whatever thing. I had no idea until I got into it. Talked to candidates, I'm like, oh, this is what it is. And I learned it. Found a couple of good NPC's, took them to market and there you go.

David Stephen Patterson [00:25:03]:
Yes. Do your research. Yes. Look at the talent reports, all that kind of jazz. But don't forget, the best possible research in the world is boots on the ground, belly to belly. Plus press of flesh, talking to candidates, finding some good people, taking them to market, that's the best way to find out if it's a viable niche for you or not. More than any research you could ever possibly do.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:23]:
I love that. David, I want to jump over to Daniel with kind of like a question but a different angle. Like you're the back end and you see the data behind what recruiters do. Have you seen recruiters make pivots to new niches and like how long data wise it typically take for them to see the success that they had in the other industries?

Daniel Miller [00:25:39]:
I can't say from a data perspective, I can say from personal conversation just to make this more of a real conversation. I know that a lot of times people will open up niches because an opportunity presented itself or they saw that there was so much need, or they have people in their community, whether it be a church, a synagogue, whatever, where they know the owner, they'll give them jobs. Once you can essentially prove that your process works, no matter what industry you're in. This is my process. This is how I do it. This is the resources and we get results and you sell them on your process and what you do. I don't think niche matters at that point because no matter what, we all have the same resources. We're all sending the same message as what you knew that person a year ago.

Daniel Miller [00:26:16]:
You're going to call them. They don't really. Maybe they remember you. But I think that people that have switched niches, there was some type of reason that was like they got it, some type of opportunity, potential or they saw an opportunity and then they use that community, kind of bring it in. I see this through friendship, relationships or they knew someone that owned a company, they never talked to them. They opened a call and then boom, they got all this new work or hey, I know this VCP, they own 100 companies now. I'm in five different industries, I don't care, I have all these. Like that happened to a few of my good friends in recruiting.

Daniel Miller [00:26:46]:
They became friends with VC's and pes and then all of a sudden they just opened the conversation. Now they never have to worry ever again. They just have hundreds of companies depending on the month. Whoever needs to hire, they come to their agency. So you know, switching niches and what have you. Through my conversations, it's so possible. It shouldn't be that big of an issue. Honestly.

Daniel Miller [00:27:04]:
Just like David said, you make ten calls, five calls, you talk to candidates, you know everything. You put up a job post, you get applications, you talk to a few people. Those conversations will teach you enough where you can then start truly recruiting and getting it. And I don't think changing niches is that big of a deal. I really don't.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:23]:
Actually, that goes into the question I was going to ask Neil. Do people overthink making a move to a new industry?

Neil Lebovits [00:27:29]:
I think they do. I think they try to look at where other people in their communities or they hear are successful. And the most successful people, especially when I used to run a global business at a deco and agile on is go where the clients tell you if you're skilled marketing and they say no, we don't have this or you have a very specific niche. And they say, but you have someone on the front office that does XYZ. Start thinking about that. Just go where it directs you as you talk to candidates, and if you're really sourcing where the leads are, you're going to have your answer. So don't overthink it. Go with the wind, if you will.

David Stephen Patterson [00:28:06]:
But I will say this as well, is just because industry is hot doesn't mean it's a viable industry. Now. I don't know, and it may be a little bit different now, but I remember a few years ago, maybe four years or whatever, when cannabis is becoming illegal in many states. I know quite a few people who were trying to get into cannabis, even though it was very hot, they were having some real difficulties because it was such a fragmented industry. Half the time they're talking to hot heads. Hot heads, yeah, yeah. And so it didn't get any traction at all, even though it was a hot industry. And so it's not just if it's industry's hot necessarily, because that has to be viable.

David Stephen Patterson [00:28:41]:
I'm sure it's viable now, but obviously, anytime there's a brand new industry, there's always going to be the industry's kind of jelly. So you may not be in a spot where they can use recruiters. That could be. And also just because industry is hot, well, it means everybody's also jumping in. Tech is a great example. Tech really was hot. Everybody started doing tech and then it cooled down. And now, yeah, a lot of folks who, all they did was tech and they didn't know how to get clients because it was so easy to get clients before and now they can't get them.

David Stephen Patterson [00:29:10]:
And it's really oversaturated in certain areas of tech. So keep that in mind and you can find some very profitable industries and some very boring areas. Hydraulics, construction, manufacturing. Right. You know, and they're not sexy. It's not hot, but, you know, it is sexy. A $40,000 fee, that's sexy. Sexy is half a million dollars a year billing.

David Stephen Patterson [00:29:31]:
That's pretty sexy. Now, you might be doing a hydraulics, no, whatever, but, you know, I'd rather be doing half a million dollars in hydraulics than 100 grand a year in a field where everybody else, like in tech with so much competition. So keep that in mind. Doesn't have to be sexy, it just has to be a good industry that's hiring.

Benjamin Mena [00:29:48]:
Do you think people, like, avoid those un sexy industries because it's like not cool and they're just missing potential money? Is it the not cool factor? Why is it they pick sexy over not sexy?

Daniel Miller [00:29:59]:
It's hard as hell. Also these blue collar roles. I work with a few recruiting firms that only do blue collar specifically and it's really hard to get the talent. When you get them on the phone they're on their jobs and you have to call after five. It's a much more of a cold calling game. And I think that people in recruiting got so used to email marketing and not doing all the cold calls that some of those not so sexy industries require the cold call still. And there's a little bit of a disconnect. I just think that's happening with a lot of recruiters entering those blue collar fields.

David Stephen Patterson [00:30:28]:
This is part of it. I could see that for sure. And also, and I think it's because some people may not like be candid, a lot of people don't use hydraulic as an example, but a lot of coach don't know about the hydraulics industry. They're almost hidden. Like for example I ran before I did SAP. When I first started with MRI I did commercial underwriting for PNC companies. And while I was there Lucy Wilson who has had my first mentor in the business, shes long deceased now but she did surety bonds so she billed back in 2000 she would build three to 400,000 per year and she identified 20 years prior to me coming in. So were talking from like the eighties, seventies through she was old school and it was a very small industry, surety bonds maybe at the time less than 1000 candidates total.

David Stephen Patterson [00:31:11]:
Like thats what she had told me. She was one of two recruiters that she knew of in the industry and it was hidden but she found it. It was like a little hidden piece of gold. And she was able to extract three to $400,000 working 25 hours a week every single year, year after year after year after year after year in surety bonds. Hidden industry, people didn't know about it type so I think people just don't either. Don't know about it and it's hidden.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:35]:
How do you go find a hidden industry that's a gold mine?

David Stephen Patterson [00:31:39]:
You really have to talk to people. I think you start talking to people and look for, you know, if you work insurance, insurance is really broad area, right? But in insurance you have these little sub niches. Start talking to candidates, clients, et cetera and you'll start getting wind of what's hot or what's viable and what's not. I think really it goes back down to boots on the ground, belly to belly press your flesh and talking to people, the more you talk to people and ask questions, good questions, as far as who's hiring, who's not hiring, trends they see in the marketplace, etcetera, youll start picking up things. I think talking to people really more than anything else is going to help you discover those hidden niches.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:12]:
Awesome. Well Neil, Daniel, DSP before we jump over to the quickfire questions, I know weve covered shift pivots, identity, whats working right now, how to market yourself, how to be different. Is there anything else you want to share when it comes to those factors?

David Stephen Patterson [00:32:28]:
Yeah, I think more than anything else I think take action. Its really, really easy to sit and plan and overanalyze and over prepare. At the end of the day, half ass plan that is acted on is much better than a perfect plan that's never acted on. So I think more than anything else, get a plan of action, start talking to people, make sure you send your emails, send your LinkedIn messages, make sure you're differentiating. And more than anything else find any way possible to get in front of prospects. Client prospects, not necessarily just candidates but client prospects and getting out in the market more than anything else. It doesn't have to be perfect, it could be messy. I'd rather you be messy and actually make things happen than be perfect and never make anything happen at all.

David Stephen Patterson [00:33:10]:
So just take action.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:12]:
Awesome. Daniel, anything from you?

Daniel Miller [00:33:14]:
I actually agree completely with David. I would say the same thing. I think a lot of people are so stuck in their heads that they don't actually do what they need to do. So taking action is so important. And I was going to bring this up probably later, but I think that you need to build a world around you and partnerships. I used to get tons of business out of partnerships. They would refer me business, I give them 10%. Everyone became my sales team.

Daniel Miller [00:33:38]:
I think of everyone as a possible connection and I had that mentality and we were able to build millions through that mentality. Microsoft makes 80% of the revenue through partnerships. Everyone in the software game does it all through partnerships. And we were doing some of that in the agency life and that really helped. And I think people don't realize who they're connected to can actually help them a lot more than they ever thought. So just throwing that out.

David Stephen Patterson [00:33:59]:
Oh and join the syndicates.

Neil Lebovits [00:34:03]:
And I would say raise the bar and your mind and body will follow. I've got great examples of that. When they train an elephant at a circus for a traveling circus. I mean how do you train this several ton creature to not destroy the entire circus. Well, they take the baby elephants, they take a pole, they dig it 20ft deep, reinforced with concrete and rebar. And the elephant struggles, and struggles and struggles and realizes very quickly that it can't do that because it won't work. And they never try again. So when they go to the traveling circus, they just take that metal pole and they do their best to just stick it into the ground.

Neil Lebovits [00:34:44]:
No concrete or anything. Same thing with the four minute mile. People thought it was impossible till Roger Bannister broke the record. And what's amazing about that story isn't that someone did something that everyone said was impossible forever, but it's that immediately after he did it, so many other people did it. So if you raise your bar, shatter your belief expectation, your body's just going to follow. It's that true?

David Stephen Patterson [00:35:10]:
Yeah. Actually, I want to say one more thing about that. A very important lesson I learned a long time ago, and I do not follow this as much as I should. And it's a struggle every day. Right. But I think raising your standards, it's not about necessarily goals. Goals are important, but it's standards that define us. It's the standards that make sure you get up every morning and get your kids at school, make sure they're fed, making sure your mortgage is paid.

David Stephen Patterson [00:35:31]:
I mean, at the end of the day, you will fight tooth and nail and claw and scrape to pay your mortgage every month, will you not? Because that is a standard. So think about raising your standards. Just as Neil said at the four minute mile became a standard for an elite runner, elite sprinter or whatever. I don't know. I'm not in the world of sprinting, that is considered sprinting necessarily. But in that world, four minute mile became kind of the standard. You had to be able to hit that right. When it became a standard, people started hitting that more often.

David Stephen Patterson [00:35:58]:
So raise your standards, because that will define your dreams as your standards.

Neil Lebovits [00:36:02]:
I love that.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:04]:
And sadly, I'd never cross that four minute mile mark. I think my fast is really good.

Neil Lebovits [00:36:10]:
But you could. Not necessarily, but one could.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:15]:
What I want to really say after this was like, I think, encompassing all this. Whether you joined the syndicate or join whatever, like, you need to find a community where people are out there winning or they're working on winning, because you can easily, whoever you spend the most time with in the digital world you become, is not just like what it used to be like in person. The five people that you spend the most time around, the five books you read, is who you become. It's now the 25 people that you spend time around online and with ubcom. So find a community, whether it's a syndicate or something else, jump in. So jumping over the quick fire questions. DSP.

David Stephen Patterson [00:36:49]:
Yes, sir.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:50]:
A recruiter sitting down with you, somebody that's like just starting off in the recruiting game. Never been a recruiter before. What advice would you tell them to win as a recruiter?

David Stephen Patterson [00:36:58]:
Talk to as many people as possible. Same advice I gave before, but really, that's really the most important thing, is find a way to talk to as many leaders that are maybe on the market candidates, because obviously they'll take your call and learn as much about the industry as possible and their pain points, their desires, frustrations, etcetera. The more you can learn that, the more you can get a feel for what your clients and prospects want to see in candidates and from recruiters, the better you do. I think the people that are order takers, that never take the time to do that when the market slows, they're the ones that are hit most because they're used to order taking. Great. In a great economy doesn't work in a bad economy. Talk to people more than anything else.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:36]:
Neil, same question, but for people that have been in the game for a while, people that have been recruiters, 510. You know, I'm almost 20 years in this game. What advice would you give to somebody like that?

Neil Lebovits [00:37:44]:
Get back to the basics and to, you know, not to sound like a broken record with David, but they don't. The very first step in sales isn't selling or making a pitch. The very first step in the sales prospect is prospecting. And that is you have to talk to people again. You got to talk to people and get back to sourcing. That's the key thing that people end up not doing. And I've seen unbelievable recruiters in my career, and that's what I used to train people on in the beginning with sourcing, getting leads, doing that before anything, and then once they become successful, they forget that the first step in sales is prospecting.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:19]:
So true. Back to the basics. Daniel, has there been a book that's had a huge impact on your personal career and success?

Daniel Miller [00:38:27]:
There's two at different times that I want to bring up for this because it was different times in life, and they're both really important for today. When I was 15, my boss gave me a book of search and placement by Larry Nobles and Steve Finkel, and he wrote a little note in there about, like, how he sees my future and that literally changed my life. And I always think today it's so important to give your youngins in your office a book that you feel like not only can teach them a business, but writing that personal note that gave me the fire and passion of today. Whatever I read in the book, it didn't matter. Everything, not only did I absorb, I was like on fire for months after that because the boss took, you know, a moment to say, hey, read this and you can perfect yourself and I want to see your growth. So almost having that first recruiter book kind of changed my life and really built a lot of passion for me, especially from like two big major people in the industry. And I highly suggest that book, even though it's so old school, it's still so amazing and applies today. And then the second book that changed my life, like literally in the last year or two, is when I read the star conspiracy is the largest HR tech ad agency that has launched every single HR tech company in America, basically, right? They're amazing.

Daniel Miller [00:39:33]:
Brett Starr is the CEO genius and he came out with a book and you know, it's basically like everything wrong in brand marketing today, right? And you know, I have to say it changed my perspective on marketing and that really is helpful for today both in the recruiting agency world or software. I think a lot of us are so interested on paid media and pay per click and, you know, advertising and how do I get, you know, roas whatever on advertising spend. But the thing is, is like sometimes you are your biggest asset and you know, you can become that celebrity and becoming a mini celebrity will give you all the leads and will bring everyone to. So focusing on your brand, who you are and making an impact, even if it's in your backyard or local community, that will start spreading. And ever since I read that book, instead of paying on ads and this and that, all I'm doing is stuff in that recruiter community and it's helped me greatly. So I thought it would be something to add when you asked favorite tech tools.

Benjamin Mena [00:40:26]:
We'll start with Neil.

Neil Lebovits [00:40:27]:
So, you know, the other two are going to give you better answers because I've been out of it. But I'm going to say this. I love Z Pierre and I'm shocked at how many people don't use it. I use it for absolutely everything. Any bit of software that I add on. And Daniel's the king of this. Daniel really has built, like I said, into his ATS 2030 different tools, but anything that can export out somewhere, even if it's a Google sheets, Zapier is going to get that into my HubSpot and it's going to allow me to do a million things with it. So if you don't play with it, log into it, check it out and check out all the apps that you can integrate.

David Stephen Patterson [00:41:06]:
Great.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:06]:
Way awesome.

David Stephen Patterson [00:41:07]:
I actually want to throw one in there as well. For me it's going to be Claude AI for creating content. Chat GPTs was great, but man, over the last six months, clawing, blowing them out of the water. So if you want to create really good content, you just have to train, train the AI Persona to actually be able to create content that writing your voice. In fact, I have an episode on this fantastic podcast about that very same subject. But Claude right now is my number one favorite tool for writing content. Perplexity AI for research. So perplexity and claw together are a dynamic combo.

Neil Lebovits [00:41:42]:
Doesn't the word Claude mean like a doofus? Like really, they don't even care about names anymore. Like doofus, not AI.

David Stephen Patterson [00:41:49]:
I don't know if it makes sense.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:51]:
Yeah, I love Claude and I love perplexity. Like, I actually had a podcast guest. It was just like, now I use perplexity for everything instead of Google. And I'm like, what's that? Holy shit.

David Stephen Patterson [00:42:01]:
It's people on steroids. And then take steroids again and then more steroids. It's amazing. Perplexity is well worth it. Well worth it.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:08]:
So I know you guys talked to so many recruiters. You guys have all been recruiters, which is why I absolutely love you guys. A lot of people are having a hard time right now. How do you guys personally get out of that funk of those hard weeks or those hard months? We'll start with you, Daniel.

Daniel Miller [00:42:24]:
It's not easy because it's also that commission sales mentality where you make a bunch of money and then it's slow the next month. And then based on how much money I have in my bank account, that's my emotional Persona for the week. Right? A lot of people have that. Basically if I have over x amount of my bank, I'm super happy. If I'm below, boom, it affects my emotions. So I think at the end of the day people have to learn better cash flow and investment in the recruiting business. So if there is a down month, I was okay. And there shouldn't be that emotion taking over or if they don't accept the job and I lose a place.

Daniel Miller [00:42:52]:
A lot of emotions are based on money. So I feel like if recruiters get their, you know, cash flow and investments in order. So when you have down months, you aren't as emotional towards it. It does help. And I think that was something I learned in my mid to late twenties.

David Stephen Patterson [00:43:05]:
You know, I would say for me it's for everybody else, but I'd say a few things that also helps as well. In addition to, yeah, cash flow. I think financial management's a key part also from mindset, finding ways to ground yourself in something else. So I like to lift heavy, so I like to do squats. So lift heavy, deadlifts. All that for some folks, religion, right? I've actually kind of recently found my faith again recently, and I was at atheist for many, many years. That's actually helped me significantly over the last, especially the last few months. I think that and also community.

David Stephen Patterson [00:43:32]:
There's a reason why bars do well in recessions and depressions. Not say you should go drink your troubles away, but go find a community where you can go and have an alcohol free happy hour, but just go and talk to other recruiters and share your wins and your struggles. And that helps a launch to have that community and other people to bounce ideas off of. So community, faith working out. I think that all those can help ground you, Neil.

Neil Lebovits [00:44:01]:
Drugs? No. And besides, besides drugs, and let alone drugs, let's call the medically approved, medically approved drug. Besides drugs, no. It's okay to be in a funk. It's normal. It's okay to be depressed at times. It's normal. Allow yourself that, for starters.

Neil Lebovits [00:44:24]:
And don't feel bad that the whole world's falling apart. Know that it's kind of crazy because situations will change and you're going to look back on that period and say, what the hell was I on a funk about? And, you know, a lot of the things that David said, but I would say community is critical and not a commercial for the syndicate. But work with people. If you can find someone that's in your neighborhood, if you're working at home alone and asked to work together. I do that often. I have a guy that, I mean, we happen to work together, but he doesn't live far away, so we just do it. So we're around each other. And if I am in a funk, which I get in them just like everybody else, I mean, I know you look at influencers and everyone think that life is perfect.

Neil Lebovits [00:45:06]:
It isn't. And that really helps me a great deal.

David Stephen Patterson [00:45:09]:
Well, I want to add one more thing in there as well. What you said, neil, reminding me this. So thank you. There's a great quote by William Faulkner and he says, I only write when I am inspired. Fortunately, I'm inspired at 09:00 every morning. So having a routine and regardless of rain, shine, sick, health, doesn't matter. 09:00 a.m. you do this.

David Stephen Patterson [00:45:31]:
10:00 a.m. you do this. And I think when things are falling apart all around you, if you can get a schedule, stick to it. One, you'll work your way out of it, which is great. You'll have some successes, right. And also gives, again, it gives you a way, something to hold onto, like almost like a lifeline. Right. So follow that advice.

David Stephen Patterson [00:45:49]:
Be inspired.

Benjamin Mena [00:45:50]:
Before I let you guys go, is there anything that you guys want to share with the listeners? And we'll do a quick round robin. We'll start with Neil first.

Neil Lebovits [00:45:57]:
You know, I just want to share, get out there and be creative. You have to take advantage of automation any way you can. You know, whether it's with a company like me, whether it's with someone like Daniel that offers something that's totally different. It's not just using AI, it's using everything. David, I think, should just share a quick picture of the syndicate when we get to him, you know, and do that. But that's my advice. You have to. You have to because you could be a dinosaur if you don't.

Neil Lebovits [00:46:23]:
You have to be out. You have to be ahead of your clients and your candidates.

Daniel Miller [00:46:27]:
Daniel, I also feel like people just have to get out there a lot more and tell everyone what they do and stop staying at home on the seat, sourcing all day. Get out of, go to the country clubs, go golf, go work out at a country fancy gym that has rich people, have huge companies. Getting out there and telling everyone what you do will bring you the most successful experience of your life, especially when you're running an agency. Everyone will need you. And I feel like once you get out there and become that mini celebrity, I think you'll see a huge opportunity.

David Stephen Patterson [00:46:56]:
And then for me, join the community. Join the syndicate, right? It's like about a community. In fact, here's a quick little screen share. As you can see, it's a beautiful little area. But yeah, I mean, they're, right now we're close to 500 members. We're growing every single day. We have fun and there's tons of training. To get me wrong, we have agreements, 50 free agreements.

David Stephen Patterson [00:47:14]:
We have over 100 forms at this point. Taina agreements, contingency agreements, free training, kick ass training here we have meme mountain over here. And so it's a fun place. Fun place for learning. It's a good kind of escape. Don't get stuck in here. Right? You still need to go out and do your work. That is.

David Stephen Patterson [00:47:32]:
My advice is to join the syndicate. Join the community. We'll be there waiting for you.

Benjamin Mena [00:47:37]:
Like I said, I just wanted to say thank you to you guys for coming on. Being a solo recruiter is hard. Being a solo recruiter, trying to figure everything out on your own is even harder. When I first started, I ran across an online community that helped me a ton. I begged for some training. I begged for agreements. There were amazing recruiters out there that have turned into friends that were able to help me along the way. And I know that there's other people out there too, that are looking for community, looking for a place to grow.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:06]:
So go find your community of people that you can win together with. So for those listening, I want you guys to keep crushing it. We're coming into the tail end of 2024. Whatever you do now is going to set the foundation for 2025. So keep crushing it, guys. Thank you.