Building a $10 Million Recruiting Business with Dave Fox

Benjamin Mena [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Elite Recruiter podcast with your host, Benjamin Menna, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:19]:
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Benjamin Mena [00:00:56]:
I'm excited about this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast. Have you ever went to make a job change? Didn't realize the grass wasn't greener on the other side. This opportunity absolutely isn't what I thought it was going to be. What do you do you have the option, do I go crawling back to, like, my former place of work? They love me there. But do I go back or do I go find a new job? Or do I go create my own opportunity? And I am so excited to have Dave Fox on this podcast talk about how he walked into that situation. And then him and his wife sat down, started their own recruiting company, and turned it into a $10 million staffing and recruiting organization. So, Dave, welcome to the podcast.

Dave Fox [00:01:34]:
Benjamin, thanks for having me, man. I'm really excited to be here.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:37]:
So we all get started with how you got started in the recruiting, and this kind of goes into the story, but at the moment, can you give us kind of like a layout of what your company is, what you guys are doing before we do a deep dive into your background?

Dave Fox [00:01:50]:
Yeah, so I'm the president of Focus GT's. That's focus global talent solutions, and we are a niche staffing and recruiting company that specializes in AI and martech roles.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:02]:
Okay, awesome. And martech, what is it about for the listeners?

Dave Fox [00:02:06]:
So it's marketing technology. It's really the technology that makes all your marketing stuff work. Right. So whether that be a huge area for us is the Adobe marketing cloud, any of those products, we can help find talent there. And then similar type products, you know, the email systems that send out emails or the web content management systems that are customizing your website to personalized experiences for customers. That's the type of people we're placing.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:30]:
Oh, that's freaking awesome. So, okay, how did you even end up in this wonderful world of recruiting?

Dave Fox [00:02:36]:
It's a funny story. I never even knew this was a. A job, right? And I'm sure you get that from a lot of people that come on here. You're not taught about a lot of jobs in school. Nobody tells you that you could be out there making money placing people. And I fell into it because I graduated from college with a finance degree in 2009, moved to New York City. The long and short of it is, couldn't get a finance job. Like, I wanted to work in an investment bank or something.

Dave Fox [00:03:00]:
Ended up at a nonprofit organization and quickly realized that they had a similar business plan to the us government, I like to call it. They were, like, losing money hand over fist and wouldn't take much advice that I would give them. So then I ended up having, like, a little intermediate job that a lot of people have that I hated as an accountant. And I was like, I have to get back in sales. And believe it or not, it was a Craigslist ad that hit me. And I always make the joke. I was like, I went into the interview. They didn't kill me.

Dave Fox [00:03:27]:
It was good. And that's how I got into the. That's how I got into the industry. And I got in at a crazy timeline because I always like to share this. Right after I got in, my wife had quit working and decided to go into real estate, which is obviously commission only in New York City. We didn't even make enough to get our apartment. The guy who got us our apartment had to say we worked at his bar to get us enough income to qualify for the apartment. I don't know, I guess he just liked us and said that.

Dave Fox [00:03:55]:
And I had just started in recruiting, and I was making $35,000 a year in New York City. So, like, you know, that's. That's the reality of that.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:07]:
Yeah. And I will say that's higher than the 27 base that I got at my first firm. But 35K in New York City is just horrible. But I was laughing at this because I'm an economics major and I started looking at positions for as economists, and everything all of a sudden required either gray hair or a PhD. And I'm like, I have neither of those.

Dave Fox [00:04:25]:
Yeah, but you do get into a lot of supply and demand in this industry, which is a major concept in economics.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:33]:
Absolutely. But one of the things that we were talking about offline Washington. You became like one of the top producers there. Could you talk about like what you did, how you did that, and how you became a top agency producer?

Dave Fox [00:04:44]:
Yeah, I describe it like this. So for me, I started out actually, so when I got this job, I was placing the people. I was on a brand new contracts division of this company that had come over to the Americas from the UK and obviously staffing and recruiting. They're one of the biggest companies in the world and they were looking on building up their it banking team. So it was funny because I got to interact with all these investment banks that I had hoped to work at now I was like, I don't know if I want to do that anymore. So I started on doing that, and then I remember it was a turning point for me. I kind of realized, I was like, because I did full desk at this time, nobody does that anymore like I did, you know, the recruiting, pulling the job, all of that. And I had this kind of revelation that I was like, Dave, you're not a recruiter.

Dave Fox [00:05:28]:
You are a salesperson. And when I realized that, I realized that if I wanted to get better at life in general, this has been a big theme in my career, has been personal development that I needed to develop as a salesperson. That was a skillset that was serving in life and as a career. And I stopped looking at myself as a recruiter and I started becoming really good at sales, and I just focused on like watching videos on YouTube, learning how to sell, and then I'd be like, okay, how do I take that and apply it to what I'm doing now? And that led me to an opportunity where I just basically, I found a new technology that was just starting to pick up steam, and it was, Adobe had just bought the software from day software, and it was their second foray really into the marketing technology scene on like the big level because most people know Adobe for like the creative cloud, right? Like Photoshop and all that. So they'd made a big foray now into enterprise level marketing. And somebody asked me, they're like, can you find someone with this skill set? And to make a long story short, I realized there was a huge opportunity in that market, and it became the opportunity for me to launch a new brand for that company and become a partner in that company. And we created the fastest growing internal startup in the history of that company based off me realizing that I needed to become a better salesperson.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:43]:
Okay, so pause on this. Pause on this. We're going to take a few minutes talking about this. Because I actually, I didn't know about this before this.

Dave Fox [00:06:48]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:48]:
So you went and found an opportunity, you realized the opportunity, and then you, like, you built a brain within that organization. So, like, yeah, if anybody wants to build a kind of like another substructure in a recruiting company, like, what advice would you give? What are the conversations that you had?

Dave Fox [00:07:04]:
So I went to them and I proved there was a market there. So the first role I found in this market was in our finance companies. But then I was like, I think there's a big opportunity here. Because I kept seeing that the consultants made a lot of money. They were really hard to find. And everyone was saying this technology was the next big thing. So I was like, okay, that sounds like an opportunity to me. And I just asked my management.

Dave Fox [00:07:23]:
I was like, look, I see an opportunity here. This is what I'm hearing from the market. Let me kind of test now. And then we started getting jobs that were outside of finance. And that's where we're like, okay, we have this other brand in the UK that doesn't focus on finance. We want to bring it here to the east coast. They were testing it out on the west coast, but they're like, we want to bring it here to the east coast. Why don't you launch it like this? I pitched them to do that and they gave me the opportunity.

Benjamin Mena [00:07:45]:
That is awesome. So once you guys did that, what were the next steps on the building it, the brand?

Dave Fox [00:07:51]:
And, yeah, I took over a couple people from my other team. They let me do that and then really, like, it was just, get to work. Let's find other markets that are like this. And that's really what I build my whole career off. Like, I think a lot of recruiters think if I have more to work on, I will be better at what I do, but because I have more opportunity, right? So, for instance, when I was placing developers, I'm like, hey, if I place developers across all technologies, I have this huge opportunity. But really what that does for you is it just diverts your focus and you're going to do much better finding maybe an area of development where you're like, I only place these type of developers. And then you can make a name for yourself and become an expert on that, but you can't juggle so much stuff. And in these markets, people are getting reached out to so much, right? A market where there's a lot more demand than supply, they're getting reached out to all the time, and they can tell if you understand that market or if you're just, you know, a jack of all trades that now has a role in that market.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:49]:
Well, okay, that's awesome. So before we jump over to the next part, is there anything else that you want to talk about when it comes, like, building, like, a brand within a brand or kind of like.

Dave Fox [00:08:59]:
Yeah, I think. I think for a lot of people, there's a really good opportunity in recruiting assassin and recruiting. You do not need to own a firm to make a lot of money and really achieve your dreams in this industry. You can be an entrepreneur. You can just be a really good biller and make a lot of money. So I would stress that for people because everybody thinks, hey, going to. Being an entrepreneur is glamorous and it's a grind, and I'm sure we're going to talk about that Runway. It is.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:27]:
All right, so we talked about that you took a ten week sabbatical. Like, how'd you even get them to say yes to that? Like, why did you decide to take one?

Dave Fox [00:09:35]:
So once I started making money in this industry, my wife and I, we always wanted to travel. So we started, like, going to a couple of foreign countries every year, just internationally, and experiencing that. And we always talked about, oh, it would be so great to, like, travel on a more longer term basis, like a couple of months or something. And we decided in 2017 that we're going to move to Florida. We had some property down here that we invested in and had been down a few times. And quality of life, taxes and weather are just much better in Florida than New York City. So we decided to move down here. And I told my family and they said, okay, if you're going to do that, you're going to open an office for us, which I was cool with.

Dave Fox [00:10:10]:
I wanted to do that was a new opportunity, new challenge, and I just figured, I was like, if there's ever been an opportunity to ask for a sabbatical, this is it, because there's, like, a clear transition between, you know, being here and opening something new. And they obliged. And I was like, I should have asked for, like, 15 weeks, not ten. But it was. So we just went on this amazing trip before we moved here, and it was really cool because we got rid of our place in New York, had no responsibility, and it was just a real great time to see how people live all over the world. It was an awesome trip.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:39]:
Awesome. So you made the move, you sabbatical, you actually took a vacation away from recruiting, which is just wild. And then you were gonna maybe open up an office. What?

Dave Fox [00:10:51]:
What happened so much like how we recruit. Somebody reached out to me on LinkedIn, and I always feel bad when I tell this story because I sound like a bit of an ass, right? I went on a sabbatical, and then I didn't open the office for my company, but that was never the intent. Like, I was looking at spacing and all this, and I was plugged in. I was ready to go, but somebody reached out to me and they said to me, they were like, hey, Dave, I've opened and sold staffing and recruiting firms in the UK. I used to work for the same company you work for. Heard great things about you. I think you should join me and consider this. And I had no intention, because I was making great money.

Dave Fox [00:11:23]:
I now had this new opportunity that I was going to get, like, you know, an ownership in, and, like, so I had no interest. But. And it's funny, when talking through this right now, I kind of think that I read a lot of books when I was on that sabbatical, and a lot of them were on entrepreneurship. And I told you, I'm into sales and personal development. So I really did always think that one day I would start my own thing. So there was a little bit of that itch now that had been scratched. And this guy did not stop reaching out to me. He was very persistent.

Dave Fox [00:11:51]:
And finally, I took a conversation, and then the next thing I know, I'm talking to people in the UK that we're going to fund the idea and all this stuff. And all of a sudden, I'm, like, ready to give my notice of my company. And I do. And I met the guy, like, this many times, right? Which is very normal now, post pandemic, but pre pandemic may be a little weird, right? He came down at the very beginning of December, and I instantly was like, man, I can't partner with this guy. What have I done? And my wife was actually up in New York because I told you she did real estate, and she was closing her last deal because we'd moved down here a few months earlier. So she went down there and she came back, and I didn't tell her a thing because I was like, maybe. Maybe I'm getting cold feet. Maybe I'm just, like, nervous about this, you know? And I wanted an untainted opinion.

Dave Fox [00:12:35]:
Like, if I went to her, I'm like, I don't think there's a guy she's gonna think probably a similar thing. So I told her nothing. And within a very short period of time, she was like, yeah, this is not gonna work. Then I didn't have the brains of the operation, right. Because I knew how to sell and I knew, like, how to build a market, but I did not know how to build business. So now I'm like, what am I going to do? And this is, you know, what you talked about at the beginning. I was, should I go back to the company that I worked for? And I wasn't going to do that. And I decided I was like, I'm out of here.

Dave Fox [00:13:05]:
So it's so interesting, because this guy, as much as we never partnered together, he really was a catalyst that pushed me over the edge to pursue that entrepreneur itch that I've had for a long time in my life. And here I am now. We started in 2018. It's now 2024. So six years later, and the company has done quite well. So it's been quite a journey.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:25]:
You guys have done amazing. You guys now have built a $10 million recruiting company.

Dave Fox [00:13:29]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:29]:
Are you guys mostly doing, like, staffing? Are you mostly doing, like, direct placement?

Dave Fox [00:13:33]:
We do all contracts for the most part. We do very little full time. I mean, we do do full time, and it's an area that we could do more in. But I've always wanted to build a company that would be valuable and could potentially be acquired at some point. So that was always my goal. And it's the contract, recurring revenue that creates that value.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:52]:
Right.

Dave Fox [00:13:52]:
So that's been a reason we focused on that.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:54]:
So you guys also.

Dave Fox [00:13:56]:
It's fine background, right?

Benjamin Mena [00:13:57]:
So, yeah, so you guys are, like, you know, mostly doing staffing, you know, recurring revenue. It's a great way to actually build a business that sells. I know when you have all these contractors, that's expensive. Did you guys, like, do, like, a back office solution? Did you guys use a factoring company? Like, how'd you get set up and how'd you get started?

Dave Fox [00:14:13]:
No, I funded it all myself, actually, which was crazy, because I remember when I started the business, I put, like, 20 grand in there, and that went fast. And then I more and more and more and more. Right. But we were lucky because we did a few full time placements first that helped build up some of that cash flow, and then we did factor for a very brief period of time, and I just happened to find the perfect factor and solution that hit me up at the right time. So that was really nice, but that's so expensive to do as a business starting out because I think a very big percentage of your revenue. So I think what we have now is we have a line of credit, but it takes a long time to get that and you kind of have to do what you have to do when you start out.

Benjamin Mena [00:14:52]:
Okay, so any advice to somebody that has a recruiting business that wants to get into the actual staffing side, like, what advice would you give them for funding?

Dave Fox [00:15:02]:
This is what I would say. If your business has been around for a while, you should have some cash reserves to be able to move into that. If nothing, as an owner, you're probably stripping too much cash over your business, is what I would likely tell them. But if you've been going for a while, too, you might be in a good place to go to a bank and get a traditional line of credit. I would definitely look at that first because it's going to be the difference of, like, what you pay annually as an interest rate is what you pay like per invoice when you factor it. So it really, it makes a massive, massive difference. So I would say pursue that line of credit if you can. I mean, you have to look at factoring, but think of that and add that cost into your pricing structure.

Dave Fox [00:15:41]:
Be thinking of that from day one because if you don't, all of a sudden you're going to have a big hit, like 3% of your total revenue, not 3% of your margin. So that can be a big hit.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:51]:
Your bottom line, awesome. Your background was always in the staffing side of the house, but how did you kick up those initial conversations of staffing compared to direct placement for your first few customers and clients?

Dave Fox [00:16:04]:
Well, like I said, it was all I ever kind of knew, so I was just like, we're just going to figure it out as we go. I remember we had our first deal and I'm like, getting a lawyer to write a contract. You kind of just have to figure out a lot of stuff as you go. But I knew that we would just cover the cost ourselves, at least initially, and I figured it was going to work out. But I was also very aggressive at first on making sure that we got good terms. And some of the people that I placed actually worked with me and gave me because I work with a lot of independent contractors and some of them I had a very good relationships with and they were able to give me, like, matching terms to what I was getting with the client. So I would do whatever I could to try to, like, get that gap as short as possible because that's going to help you a lot at the beginning. You can't win every battle and you have to be willing to, like, have that gap be longer in certain situations, but the fastest that you can shrink that, the better, for sure.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:57]:
So you guys are a $10 million recruiting company. What is working on business development? How are you guys, like, really finding that new business right now?

Dave Fox [00:17:04]:
It's funny that you asked that, man, because this is the thing that I actually think that a lot of people have been struggling with. The thing that has worked for us has been really investing a lot in marketing. I think that staffing and recruiting companies traditionally are horrible at marketing. And if you look at some of the marketing that's out there, it's just really bad. So we've put a lot into, like, video creation and content creation, and a lot of people just tell us, they're like, hey, I saw your stuff on LinkedIn, or I saw this video and I thought it was really good. So it's a long game, but it's been really helpful for us, for sure. Just trying to be much better at a very important aspect of business than a lot of the competition.

Benjamin Mena [00:17:46]:
So when it comes to, like, making content, a lot of recruiters, I feel like, make content for other recruiters, or they make videos for other recruiters. What kind of, like, videos are you guys making that clients actually like and are attracted to?

Dave Fox [00:18:01]:
You have to put yourself really into that ideal customer seat. And as recruiters, we need to remember, we talk to hiring managers, but the average employee, like, what is it, 60 or 70% of employees are disengaged from their jobs, right? So that means that it doesn't change just because you have people reporting to you. We're not looking for the disengaged hiring managers, and those are the ones that, like, waste your time, right. Those could also be the person that, like, they really, really like to interview people because it makes them feel powerful and they forget about their, like, normal job and stuff like that. So really thinking about the psychographics of who you're talking to. And when I say that, it's like, I think often when we think of ideal customer profile, we're like, oh, I want somebody that manages a team of this size on this company. But no, you want somebody that's engaged, and you want somebody that really cares about building their team, right? They care about, and they understand that their success is predetermined by the success of the people on their team and having the right people in their team. And when you understand that psychographical profile, then it's like, okay, what type of content would speak to that person? And that's where you have to start.

Dave Fox [00:19:12]:
If you want to serve that person the right piece of content.

Benjamin Mena [00:19:16]:
You said that's a thing that a lot of recruiters are missing. Do you have, like, a good percentage of, like, how much business that has brought you guys?

Dave Fox [00:19:22]:
It's brought, I don't know the exact percentage, but I know that when you're branding yourself, and this is another aspect of becoming an expert in sales, like you're your own brand, we have a very unique opportunity in this industry where you get to build something, an asset that's very personal is your LinkedIn. Right, but we all use that, but it's your personal LinkedIn. So this is your chance to really, like, build something that's valuable to you, regardless of, you know, if you stay with the same company forever or whatever. And that brand equity in you is what's really valuable. So it's thinking about how do I provide valuable content to the audience that I want to so that eventually they start coming to me instead of me constantly going out searching for business and starting at square one every single day? And I think that just comes from the mindset of when you're doing the full desk, because I realized that for me to scale up, I needed to get myself to a place, because again, I get a job, I have to recruit. And this is what happens when you do that. You forget about your pipeline because you have a hot job that you're working on right now. So I needed to devise a way to get my pipeline to come to me because I provided so much value and expertise to them so that I would fix that problem.

Dave Fox [00:20:36]:
And I figured that out via content to a certain degree.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:40]:
That's awesome. Well, is there anything else that's really working for you on the business development side of the house? Before I ask you about AI, I.

Dave Fox [00:20:47]:
Think some of the new tools where you can automate is really valuable because you want your people doing what is the best use of their time. And I think a lot of times now salespeople can get caught up doing things like data entry and research and all that. That's not the best use of your time if you're a salesperson, you want to be selling. So I think tools that can help make people more efficient doing what they do best is really useful right now in the biz dev space.

Benjamin Mena [00:21:16]:
Love that. And because you focus on AI and you're working with these companies that are like super heavy in AI, what's your thoughts on how AI is going to impact recruiting?

Dave Fox [00:21:27]:
I think that there will be a day where AI could actually completely replace recruiting, but I only think that because I think AI can go to a very far place where it's going to be able to replace in most jobs. I do, though, think that there is a massive human touch to recruiting that is going to be valuable for some time. I don't think recruiting is an immediate jeopardy because of AI, but I think eventually, yes, and I think you could almost say that to any profession. Like, you name a profession, you probably could envision a scenario in which AI could replace that profession. But I think in the near term, it's going to make us a lot more efficient, and the recruiters that can learn to utilize this to their advantage are going to have a massive advantage over others. Like, there is a lot of money to be made in AI and a lot of opportunities in AI, but it's moving so quick. It's not something that people should be sitting on the sidelines for. It's still extremely early, but I say that with caution because it's early, but it's moving so fast that, you know, it could be not early tomorrow.

Dave Fox [00:22:30]:
Like, that's how fast we're moving right now.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:32]:
Spot on. And just for a funny thing with the listeners, I saw a meme, I think it was yesterday, making fun of, like, AI and, like, the 17 fingers. And I'm like, but AI is not doing that anymore. It's like making full on rubies.

Dave Fox [00:22:43]:
Yeah, yeah. It's come a massive way. So much so that I can't even, like, I was appalled. I was actually meeting a client with one of my new business developers probably about, like, six months ago, and this client said, I asked them what they thought of AI, and they literally said, I think it's a fad. And I remember just thinking in my mind, like, we need to get out of here. Like, this company is going to be, like, gone in a few years. Like, in another world. They were with AI, and I'm just like, man, I don't know how you'd be thinking that at this point.

Benjamin Mena [00:23:13]:
That is crazy. Well, before we jump over to the quickfire questions, is there anything else you'd love to share with the listeners about, you know, making that move, getting your business started?

Dave Fox [00:23:22]:
I think what I would share with people is, like I said, this is really an industry where you can write your own future. Like, you can do very, very well in this industry. The thing that I would say to somebody that's maybe starting out that has dreams of success is it is a reps thing, and you do get better at it with time. And if you think you're gonna, like, make $200,000 in two years? That's not very likely. But if you stick with this for a long period of time, you could do much better than that. And it's about consistency, and it's about doing the right things, and eventually it will work. So that's what I would tell someone, because I think we live in a day and age where people want success. It's the ring.

Dave Fox [00:23:59]:
It's just not there.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:00]:
But the opportunity is talking about success instantly. Outside of that, why do you think, like, people getting started with their own firm don't make it?

Dave Fox [00:24:08]:
I think one is part of the same thing. If you ask most people why they want to start a business, you're going to hear two things, right, time and money. I want to be in control of my money. I want to make more money, and I want more time. Thinking that having a business is gonna give you more time is like thinking that having a child is gonna give you more time. Like, it's not. It's going to take a ton of your time. But if you set it up right and you build the right systems and you invest in the right things, you can eventually get into a place where, yeah, it can run on its own, but it's going to cost you a lot of time.

Dave Fox [00:24:39]:
So thinking that you're in the start something because you want to be in control of your time, no, this is how it works.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:45]:
That's awesome. Well, jumping over to the quickfire questions.

Dave Fox [00:24:48]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:49]:
What advice would you give to a brand new recruiter that's just getting started in our industry?

Dave Fox [00:24:54]:
I would say learn the lesson that I learned about two years in. Understand that you are in a job of sales and dive into that. Learn about persuasion and psychology of buyers and buyer Personas and all these different things, and you will be in a position where you will excel way faster than the next person because you're actually understanding the most fundamental thing that we deal with in this business, and that's human behavior.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:19]:
Why do you think so many recruiters suck at sales?

Dave Fox [00:25:22]:
I think because they don't understand or they have a bad impression of what sales is like. So many people you talk to and they're like, I hate sales, or I'm not a good salesperson. And the fact of the matter is, any time in life that you need someone to accept or agree with your point of view, you are selling to them. And that's pretty frequent. Even if you're talking about, like, where you want to eat dinner tonight. I want to eat dinner at this restaurant, you want to eat that one? Well, I got to sell you on why my idea is better than yours, whether I realize that I'm selling or not. So when you start to understand that and you realize that this is actually a skill that can benefit me tremendous in my life, like if you're a better seller, guess what? When you go to ask for a raise, you're going to do a better job at that. So I think it said people don't, people don't.

Dave Fox [00:26:04]:
They just want to do the minimum amount of effort for the maximum amount of pay rather than seeing like, I am building a skill that can really pay me very well down the road because you need sales and pretty much anything if you want to really excel. It's one of the most fundamental skills you can learn.

Benjamin Mena [00:26:19]:
Now, when it comes to, like, people that have been around the block, you know, 510, 25 years in recruiting, what advice would you give to them to keep on seeing success in this game?

Dave Fox [00:26:29]:
I think a couple of things don't get comfortable because that's one of the areas when you first start making money in this business, it's very easy to become comfortable and take your foot off the gas, and that's great until all of a sudden you have no pipeline and one of your clients drops a bunch of your contractors and now you don't have an income like you did because it's very easy to get used to those income levels. So you always have to be thinking about your pipeline. That's the most important thing. Where's my next customer coming from? Where's my next deal coming from? How am I going to further, you know, penetrate this customer that I have to get into other lines of business? These are the things that you constantly need to be thinking of, because if you let any of these slip, your pipeline will dry up eventually, and then you're just going to have to, you know, learn that lesson yourself. Or, you know, far worse is you succumb to this belief that my best days were behind me and I'm never going to get there again, and you just give up. And that's, that's an outcome that can happen to people, too. So you have to keep that pipeline full.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:26]:
Awesome. And when it comes to, like, you know, rec tech tools and AI tools for recruiting, do you have any favorites?

Dave Fox [00:27:33]:
Yeah, I like a tool called Ample market. It is a email automation sequence, but it can also work with LinkedIn too. And I think we use LinkedIn a lot. So being able to automate some stuff on there is really, really useful I think that's a tool that I really like. I'm going to think of any other ones. Another one that I like is read AI. It's a tool that you can use on Zoom meetings, and it basically will take notes for you, but it can also manage, analyze things like sentiment, how engaged the person was, and things like that. And that can be really useful if you want to be able to go back, look at your meetings and look at them almost like, you know, game footage and how you can get better.

Dave Fox [00:28:09]:
That would be a really useful tool for sure. As well as not having to take notes. It's always useful.

Benjamin Mena [00:28:15]:
I love that you have all these books in the background behind you, like different books by colors. There's been a book that's had a huge impact on your career.

Dave Fox [00:28:23]:
Man, there. There are so many. I think one that comes to mind that I really like is it's called the upper limit rule, and it's by this guy, gay Hendricks. It's a really, really solid book. And just talking about how oftentimes our mindsets, like a thermostat, right? You know, someone's in this industry and they always thought, like, the most, you know, like, success to them was $150,000. And then they start making, say, like, 175, they can somehow self sabotage because it's almost like a thermostat, like, kicks on. It's like, hey, what are you doing up here? 175, you're a 150 guy. And then, you know, it kicks them back down.

Dave Fox [00:28:59]:
So it talks about expanding that mindset all the time. So, you know, you hit that 150, but now you're like, okay, how do I expand to that 175? So that you can keep growing. And I think that's another thing that happens. Going back to people getting comfortable. It's the same thing, right? If you hit a goal income in any type of sales job, you have to increase that or else you're going to get stagnant and more.

Benjamin Mena [00:29:22]:
I think an upper limit problem is something a lot of people have. And for that to be, like one of your top books, what was an upper limit issue that you had to personally break through?

Dave Fox [00:29:31]:
Oh, man, there's so many in business. I think one of them was probably within the hiring field. Like, when you're building a business, you're hiring people, you make a few bad hires, and you start to just think that people in general suck, right? And you can easily start to think that way because, you know, you get burned, someone's not worried. And it's tough as well. When you're remote because it's very easy for people to take advantage of that. So I think, you know, that happens a few times. And as a business owner, you start to lose faith in people, and it's a weird upper limit to break because, you know, you have verifiable experience. But it's really.

Dave Fox [00:30:08]:
It comes down to kind of breaking that upper limit by realizing, like, hey, wait. I'm the one responsible here. I'm the one that's making the choices. And if I've hired someone, that's not good. I need to be able to look at that like I would any type of data in a business and be like, okay, what am I doing here? What can I improve upon and make sure we're not making that mistake again? So I would say that's definitely been an upper limit that I've. I've had to break here.

Benjamin Mena [00:30:30]:
You were a top biller at your first staffing company, first recruiting company, so that, like, they gave you a freaking, like, sabbatical. Like, very few places do that. That means that he trusted you, you did so well that you earned their respect, and then you've done great with your own business. Like, what personally drives you for success?

Dave Fox [00:30:47]:
I have, you know, some really big goals, and I've also learned that, like, we have to keep growing. We cannot be stagnant. I think a lot of people think if I stay like I was, you know, I look back on last year and I'm in the same place as I was, like, I didn't go backwards, I'm good. But the fact of the matter is, you actually did go backwards because you're a year further ahead in your life. You have one year less, and you're in the same place you were a year ago. So from that mindset, you're either going forward or you're going backwards. So for me, I'm constantly looking for stuff to pull me forward and have vision of what I want in my life. And I actually have, like, this massive vision board.

Dave Fox [00:31:24]:
You can't see it, but it's got all these things that I want to one day own or experience, and it's right in front of me all the time. So I need to remind myself of that because I have gotten myself to a place where, you know, I'm comfortable. I live in a great house, I have nice vehicles. I have a lot of things that a lot of people want. And it would be very easy for me to be like, oh, you know, like, take my foot off the gas. But it's also remembering that I have a group of people that are counting on our business being successful for their own livelihoods as well. Right. So that's another big part that keeps me motivated for sure.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:00]:
How did you recognize and find those things that are pulling you forward?

Dave Fox [00:32:06]:
I just dream, and I think you need to have a vision or a dream that you don't really know exactly how you're going to accomplish it because it's going to be something that gets you really excited. And I'll give you an example. I have a plane on my vision board. It's a desalt falcon. And I think I knew one of these is like $35 million. But the reason it's on here is I want to be able to fly in one of these things. That's my outcome when I travel somewhere, and I don't care if it's owned by me or if it's chartered all the time, but, like, that's wild to me. And I'm like, sometimes when you experience something that's a little outside of your comfort zone or a little bit outside of what you could normally afford, you have that experience.

Dave Fox [00:32:48]:
If you enjoy it, your mind is like, I believe it'll figure out a way to bring that warrant to your life because that's just what I've experienced so much. So I think keeping those visions and what you want in front of you all the time is a great way to keep you focused and make sure that you get there.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:02]:
Did that vision board change over the years of you having your business? Yes.

Dave Fox [00:33:09]:
Yes. There's been things that I've taken off of there. I'll give you an example. We had a private school that we wanted my son to go to and get into, and that was sitting on my vision board. And the other day he got on there and I literally picked him up and I'm like, you're pulling this one off, right? So we'll put something else on there eventually. But, you know, when I just get a vision of something that I want or something I want to see, I'll put that on here. And then I, you know, from time to time, they're coming off, too, which is amazing. But the goal is to have it be more empty than full, because that means that you're.

Dave Fox [00:33:36]:
You're hitting those things when it comes.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:38]:
To your own story. And if you can get a chance to, like, go back and coach yourself, it's going to be a two way question. The first time is like, with everything that you know now, if you got a chance to sit down with Dave in his first month of recruiting ever, what advice would you give yourself?

Dave Fox [00:33:55]:
So I think one of the biggest pieces of advice that I tell people now that I would give myself, that is your level of success is directly determined by how much stress you're able to deal with. And what I mean by that is, you know, sometimes in this job, I remember times when I was like, I want to give up, right? It's like I couldn't even handle someone else paying me. And some of the challenges that that was giving me, when you're fully responsible for it all on your own, that's like a whole new level of stress. Right? And that's why I said that some people are better off entrepreneurship because they're never going to be able to get themselves to a place where they can deal with that level of uncertainty in their life. But if you can learn to deal with that, and that's really what stress is, right? It's uncertainty. We're stressed because we're uncertain about something. And we as humans, we like to be certain. So if you can learn to deal with that uncertainty, which you get so much in this job, right.

Dave Fox [00:34:49]:
There's so many ups and downs. You know, one day today, you're like, on cloud nine because you just got an offer for this candidate and it's going to be a big deal. And you're certainly candace, you know, take it. And then you get them on the phone and they're like, you know, I didn't tell you, but I had another interview and I got this offer and I'm gonna take that. And all of a sudden you're like, you're on cloud nine now. You're on, like, 9ft under, right? So you've gone through this whole series of emotions, and that's stressful. So just being able to deal with that and stay on a level playing field and knowing that the stress is an indicator that you're probably doing something right, not necessarily something wrong.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:24]:
Same question again, though, and let's take this back to what was it, 2018 when you just started your company? Like, yeah, one, two, three months in with what you've been able to see from the journey that you've had.

Dave Fox [00:35:35]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:36]:
Where you guys have grown, what advice would you give yourself at that point?

Dave Fox [00:35:39]:
I would say invest more and be more fearless. It's really easy to think that, okay, we started off, we had nothing. Now we have some income, and I want to hold on to that, but you have to feed the beast. A business is hungry and it eats cash, and you need to be feeding that cash. But it also produces cash, but it needs to be. That cycle needs to be fed. So, like, things like spending a little bit more money for a better person or investing in things that are going to give you a good ROI quicker and building those systems. That's what I would say, starting this off.

Dave Fox [00:36:16]:
Like, don't be afraid to invest in the business, and don't be afraid to make mistakes because you're going to make mistakes and learn from them. But that's what I would say. And the other thing that I would give myself, but we are lucky that we actually did this. But this is what I tell anybody else, is get around other people who own businesses, because as a business owner, you're dealing with different problems than you did as an employee. And you need to be around other people that are dealing with the same problems, because that's where you're going to be able to glean some of their wisdom and make sure that you don't make those mistakes that they've already gone through.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:42]:
One of the pieces of advice that you said you would give yourself is be fearless. Was there a lot of fear holding you back when you got started?

Dave Fox [00:36:49]:
I don't know if it was fear, but it's like, you have a lot of, like, holy crap. Moments as a business owner where, you know, like. Like, I remember the first time we got sued once, and it's just you have all these moments where it's really scary as a business owner. And I remember that moment, and I was like, it was so, like, you know, you've just been served papers and all that. It looks like tv, and you're like, oh, what am I going to do? And you're going through all the worst case scenarios. And I remember, like, for me, I had to change a story around that. I was like, successful people get sued. And once I changed the story around that, I was like, okay, this is a sign of success, and it ended up being fine.

Dave Fox [00:37:28]:
And your worst year is very seldom realized, right? So that's why I would say be fearless, because you know you're gonna need it. You need to be courageous. But, like, very rarely does your worst year happen. That's just, like, your mind trying to mess with you.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:43]:
Love that. Well, before I let you go, Dave, if somebody wants to follow you, how do they go about doing that?

Dave Fox [00:37:49]:
Yeah, so it's Dave Fox, CEO, and that's the same that I use on everything. So that's my instagram, that's my threads, that's my YouTube channel, that's my LinkedIn. So just Dave Fox, CEO. That's how you find me.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:02]:
Is there anything else that you would love to share with the listeners before we go?

Dave Fox [00:38:06]:
No, I would just say this is what I share with the listeners because I did tell you this when we were first talking about doing this, that if you're listening to this, you're doing the right thing. Like, if you want to be better at this job enough that you've gone to sound a podcast on recruitment, that you're listening to this, like, kudos to you, you're going down the right path. Keep doing that and you're going to be successful.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:26]:
Awesome. Well, Dave, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on, sharing, like, you know, your background with artificial intelligence and marketing technology. But most importantly, it's just like, there's so many people that go to make that jump or go to make that leap, and then they realized it just wasn't what they thought it was going to be. And you're faced with all these situations like, what do I do next?

Dave Fox [00:38:45]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:46]:
Thank you for sharing the story of what you did next, the things that you went through, how you built your staffing company, how you've gotten to the success that you've had. Because I know that there's a listener out there that it's going to make an impact for them, for the listeners. I want you to make 2020 for your best year yet. Keep crushing it, guys. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed, hit subscribe and leave a rating.